Applying for pilot roles in Navy and RAF simultaneously

MAXtmpu

Midshipman
Thanks for the advice again MAX :) Went to the RAF P2 presentation yesterday and asked there about the whole CBAT/FAT's thing, she seemed pretty sure they wouldn't let me do the observer tests on the day but no harm in asking politely when I get there.

Also, forgot to ask before - which role is it you're going for? Also pilot?
No problem! The P2 presentation is quite pleasant. I remember a pilot applicant saying that the RAF flew F16s! They will ask you in your filter interview for the RAF about seemingly benign content from the presentation like:
  • How much funding do you get per year from the RAF for study + qualifications?
  • What year and month did NATO form?
  • Every single week of initial officer training.
The RAF will want you to know as many squadrons as possible, where they fly from, what they are doing now, and what aircraft they fly. They will also want you to know how each aircraft relates to the broader application of air power. Anyway, apologies for digressing, but I thought that it was worth pointing that stuff out whilst it is fresh in your memory. Enough of the crab stuff. For contrast, I was asked no service knowledge at AIB.

I suspect that the staff at Cranwell run the tests for all candidates (RAF, Army, Navy) throughout the week, and so you're hopefully going to be treated apolitically by those guys and they may let you sit the observer tests whilst you're there. No harm in asking, as you say. It could be a reason as simple as a software limitation that stops you from doing it.

I'm going for pilot and got my aircrew medical date yesterday. I'm hoping that all goes well with no snags and I get selected for May entry into BRNC, but I could still fail the medical and/or not be selected for May - so I'm prepared for the worst but hoping for the best. My anthropometrics, hearing, and eyesight are all good-to-go (well, at least according to my own measurements/previous examinations - how sad am I for checking these!) so I just hope I get through on the other tests. They will put you through an EEG, ECG, some spirometry tests, and extensive hearing and eyesight tests. Anyway, I'm rambling about myself. Keep us up to date with your applications and don't be afraid to ask anything else.
 

jnc90

Midshipman
No problem! The P2 presentation is quite pleasant. I remember a pilot applicant saying that the RAF flew F16s! They will ask you in your filter interview for the RAF about seemingly benign content from the presentation like:
  • How much funding do you get per year from the RAF for study + qualifications?
  • What year and month did NATO form?
  • Every single week of initial officer training.
The RAF will want you to know as many squadrons as possible, where they fly from, what they are doing now, and what aircraft they fly. They will also want you to know how each aircraft relates to the broader application of air power. Anyway, apologies for digressing, but I thought that it was worth pointing that stuff out whilst it is fresh in your memory. Enough of the crab stuff. For contrast, I was asked no service knowledge at AIB.

I suspect that the staff at Cranwell run the tests for all candidates (RAF, Army, Navy) throughout the week, and so you're hopefully going to be treated apolitically by those guys and they may let you sit the observer tests whilst you're there. No harm in asking, as you say. It could be a reason as simple as a software limitation that stops you from doing it.

I'm going for pilot and got my aircrew medical date yesterday. I'm hoping that all goes well with no snags and I get selected for May entry into BRNC, but I could still fail the medical and/or not be selected for May - so I'm prepared for the worst but hoping for the best. My anthropometrics, hearing, and eyesight are all good-to-go (well, at least according to my own measurements/previous examinations - how sad am I for checking these!) so I just hope I get through on the other tests. They will put you through an EEG, ECG, some spirometry tests, and extensive hearing and eyesight tests. Anyway, I'm rambling about myself. Keep us up to date with your applications and don't be afraid to ask anything else.
Yeah the presentation was really useful actually and the RPAS role appeals to me more now than it did before hand but Pilot with the Navy is still my clear preference.
She did give us a lot of good tips and info for the interview, sounds like it will be very different and require far more knowledge than the equivalent sift interview for the Navy did. Appreciate the tips again!

Yep, I suspect they won't be able to set it up for me to do the other tests as she said the battery of tests is pre-loaded but worth a shot like you say!

Got my fingers crossed for you then, sounds like you should be fine :) Hopefully the medical will go without any problem and you'll get a date for training asap!

Not getting my hopes up after doing some online practice and looking at the CBAT app. My mental arithmetic has gone to sh*t since doing my GCSE's over 10 years ago! :( Can only give it my best shot though!

Will let you know how it goes in a few weeks time :)
 

MAXtmpu

Midshipman
Not getting my hopes up after doing some online practice and looking at the CBAT app. My mental arithmetic has gone to sh*t since doing my GCSE's over 10 years ago! :( Can only give it my best shot though!

Will let you know how it goes in a few weeks time :)
Practice practice practice! Speeddistancetime.info is also a great resource. On the CBAT app, spend more time doing the parcel delivery SDT questions than the quick-fire ones (although all are useful). Questions on the day will be similar to start with, but they get more varied and force you to think on your feet a little. All you can do is practice the core skills and hope to adapt when they throw different styles if questions at you.

Get good at the CLAN test too. You rack up points by doing as many of the mental arithmetic questions as possible, as they throw as many of those at you as you can answer.

I also used Dual-N-Back training to improve working memory, as its the only "brain game" I've seen tested clinically and has been shown to improve working memory. You'll find it on Android and iOS. Look it up if you're interested.

Best of luck with it. The FATs are a hard day. Read all instructions for each test in detail twice! Give it your best shot.
 

jnc90

Midshipman
Practice practice practice! Speeddistancetime.info is also a great resource. On the CBAT app, spend more time doing the parcel delivery SDT questions than the quick-fire ones (although all are useful). Questions on the day will be similar to start with, but they get more varied and force you to think on your feet a little. All you can do is practice the core skills and hope to adapt when they throw different styles if questions at you.

Get good at the CLAN test too. You rack up points by doing as many of the mental arithmetic questions as possible, as they throw as many of those at you as you can answer.

I also used Dual-N-Back training to improve working memory, as its the only "brain game" I've seen tested clinically and has been shown to improve working memory. You'll find it on Android and iOS. Look it up if you're interested.

Best of luck with it. The FATs are a hard day. Read all instructions for each test in detail twice! Give it your best shot.
Yeah been working on my mental arithmetic the past few weeks as I think that's probably my weakest point, just gone brain dead since school. Got the CBAT app too so spending as much time on there as possible. Strangely I actually enjoy the CLAN tests, but good tip to try and focus on as many of the sums as possible, thanks!

Just downloaded that other app now as I'd not heard of that one. Thanks again mate!
 

MAXtmpu

Midshipman
Yeah been working on my mental arithmetic the past few weeks as I think that's probably my weakest point, just gone brain dead since school. Got the CBAT app too so spending as much time on there as possible. Strangely I actually enjoy the CLAN tests, but good tip to try and focus on as many of the sums as possible, thanks!

Just downloaded that other app now as I'd not heard of that one. Thanks again mate!
Focusing on the maths mainly got me a stanine 8 out of 9 score for CLAN on my FATs, and I still made several mistakes, so I personally think its a good strategy.

Not a lot of people have heard of Dual N Back full-stop, but it was the only "brain training" game that I found that has been clinically shown to improve working memory. I found it helped with recall on the situational awareness test.
 

jnc90

Midshipman
Focusing on the maths mainly got me a stanine 8 out of 9 score for CLAN on my FATs, and I still made several mistakes, so I personally think its a good strategy.

Not a lot of people have heard of Dual N Back full-stop, but it was the only "brain training" game that I found that has been clinically shown to improve working memory. I found it helped with recall on the situational awareness test.
Just another quick question bud, I'm almost sure there won't be a definitive answer to this but when doing the parcel/fuel SDT questions, any idea if it's just right or wrong or is there any indication that you score some marks for getting close the the correct answer? Lots of places I've read say that this one is more about a solid 'guesstimate' and getting as close to the exact answer as possible? Does that sound right?
 

MAXtmpu

Midshipman
Just another quick question bud, I'm almost sure there won't be a definitive answer to this but when doing the parcel/fuel SDT questions, any idea if it's just right or wrong or is there any indication that you score some marks for getting close the the correct answer? Lots of places I've read say that this one is more about a solid 'guesstimate' and getting as close to the exact answer as possible? Does that sound right?
To answer your question
Yes - I remember the instructions on the day saying that answers are given for approximate answers. You have a minute to answer each question with no paper. It was the same for me in 2014 and 2019 - so I doubt it will change in the near future.

My advice is to expect most answers to be in whole numbers. If not, round the answer appropriately - some answers will not be whole numbers. Always try to get the correct answer - don't rely on your approximations and try to avoid guesswork. If you have 5 seconds left on the question and you're lost - just throw something as reasonable as possible in.

Some extra details
I don't believe that its a case of "complete as many as you can in 10 minutes" either, its something like 3 sets of 5+ questions, but I don't remember exactly. The first 1-2 questions in the set are okay, and after that, they ramp up the difficulty/diversity of question types. The good old CBAT website has some images here - information is presented to you in miles per minute and in graphs or bar charts. In a couple of questions, there are two aircraft to consider with different fuel burn rates (for example) and you will have to make sure you read the right fuel consumption graph.

Nothing you can do to prepare specifically for those questions, but if you get good at the CBAT app you should be adaptable and well prepared on the day.
 

jnc90

Midshipman
To answer your question
Yes - I remember the instructions on the day saying that answers are given for approximate answers. You have a minute to answer each question with no paper. It was the same for me in 2014 and 2019 - so I doubt it will change in the near future.

My advice is to expect most answers to be in whole numbers. If not, round the answer appropriately - some answers will not be whole numbers. Always try to get the correct answer - don't rely on your approximations and try to avoid guesswork. If you have 5 seconds left on the question and you're lost - just throw something as reasonable as possible in.

Some extra details
I don't believe that its a case of "complete as many as you can in 10 minutes" either, its something like 3 sets of 5+ questions, but I don't remember exactly. The first 1-2 questions in the set are okay, and after that, they ramp up the difficulty/diversity of question types. The good old CBAT website has some images here - information is presented to you in miles per minute and in graphs or bar charts. In a couple of questions, there are two aircraft to consider with different fuel burn rates (for example) and you will have to make sure you read the right fuel consumption graph.

Nothing you can do to prepare specifically for those questions, but if you get good at the CBAT app you should be adaptable and well prepared on the day.
Great, thanks again for the info. Been using the CBAT app and these one's are my weakest point really. It seems the answer is always going to be rounded to the nearest minute at least? I guess aiming for the correct answer should at least hopefully get me to within a reasonably good answer.

Feel like I've gone back to GSCE maths trying to sharpen up mental arithmetic skills for this one, seems to be the one test of the lot that you can make a good go at improving your chances.
 

MAXtmpu

Midshipman
Great, thanks again for the info. Been using the CBAT app and these one's are my weakest point really. It seems the answer is always going to be rounded to the nearest minute at least? I guess aiming for the correct answer should at least hopefully get me to within a reasonably good answer.

Feel like I've gone back to GSCE maths trying to sharpen up mental arithmetic skills for this one, seems to be the one test of the lot that you can make a good go at improving your chances.
Use the leaderboard functionality on the app to gauge how you're doing. Some people are disgracefully good at it - getting high scores on 25-30. You don't need to be that good, the best I ever got was 15 and I was stanine 7 for that aptitude (although it also includes system logic test, but the airborne numerical test is very overweight in that category. The minimum stanine requirement is 4, which is 23rd percentile and above. No need to be superhuman with this test by any means!

Figure out what aspect is slowing you down and find techniques for it (e.g. adding/subtracting from a 24 hour clock).

Honestly, though, it is mostly down to practice. People say you can't prepare for these tests but I refuse to believe them. Just keep practicing and find a method that works.
 

jnc90

Midshipman
Use the leaderboard functionality on the app to gauge how you're doing. Some people are disgracefully good at it - getting high scores on 25-30. You don't need to be that good, the best I ever got was 15 and I was stanine 7 for that aptitude (although it also includes system logic test, but the airborne numerical test is very overweight in that category. The minimum stanine requirement is 4, which is 23rd percentile and above. No need to be superhuman with this test by any means!

Figure out what aspect is slowing you down and find techniques for it (e.g. adding/subtracting from a 24 hour clock).

Honestly, though, it is mostly down to practice. People say you can't prepare for these tests but I refuse to believe them. Just keep practicing and find a method that works.
Yeah, I'm sure there will be people who will be incredible in those test but then maybe not so good with the hand-eye coordination stuff, swings and roundabouts I guess. Reassuring that you're not expected to smash this section of the tests though o_O

When you saying adding/subtracting from a 24 hour clock, is this actually part of one of the tests that I've missed or just a method you use in various one's?

Will keep on practicing and can only give it my best shot I guess. I've never been naturally gifted with mental arithmetic but was reasonably comfortable with it in school, my brain just seems to have gone to mush in the 10 years since then :(
 

MAXtmpu

Midshipman
Yeah, I'm sure there will be people who will be incredible in those test but then maybe not so good with the hand-eye coordination stuff, swings and roundabouts I guess. Reassuring that you're not expected to smash this section of the tests though o_O

When you saying adding/subtracting from a 24 hour clock, is this actually part of one of the tests that I've missed or just a method you use in various one's?

Will keep on practicing and can only give it my best shot I guess. I've never been naturally gifted with mental arithmetic but was reasonably comfortable with it in school, my brain just seems to have gone to mush in the 10 years since then :(
In the CBAT app SDT tests, it is usually a case of completing the following tasks in order:
1) Are we carrying a parcel? Find speed based on the appropriate table (either using parcel weight or miles per gallon tables).
2) Work out the speed in miles per minute (divide by 60).
3) Work out the distance by using the waypoints.
4) Divide the distance by the speed to give you the number of minutes (duration of flight).
5) Add (or subtract) the duration of the flight from the departure (or arrival) time to give the answer. This is the point at which you're adding/subtracting from a 24-hour clock. For example, you might have to add 45 minutes to a departure time of 1543 - which is 1628. I used this website at first.

I may have said it in another thread, or perhaps its this one, but I got a B in GCSE maths but went on to get a physics degree, so I can tell you that maths is not a "natural gift" or anything of the sort! It just takes some hard work and commitment to get it right. You should be encouraged to keep working on it.
 

jnc90

Midshipman
In the CBAT app SDT tests, it is usually a case of completing the following tasks in order:
1) Are we carrying a parcel? Find speed based on the appropriate table (either using parcel weight or miles per gallon tables).
2) Work out the speed in miles per minute (divide by 60).
3) Work out the distance by using the waypoints.
4) Divide the distance by the speed to give you the number of minutes (duration of flight).
5) Add (or subtract) the duration of the flight from the departure (or arrival) time to give the answer. This is the point at which you're adding/subtracting from a 24-hour clock. For example, you might have to add 45 minutes to a departure time of 1543 - which is 1628. I used this website at first.

I may have said it in another thread, or perhaps its this one, but I got a B in GCSE maths but went on to get a physics degree, so I can tell you that maths is not a "natural gift" or anything of the sort! It just takes some hard work and commitment to get it right. You should be encouraged to keep working on it.
Agreed, it is definitely something that can be practiced. When doing these though I always think, it would be really handy to have Rachel Riley levels of ability right now :rolleyes:

Thanks again for the tips, very sensible way to break down the problem. Funnily enough my father is a retired professor of physics and so is very good with this kind of thing, so planning to have a couple of cramming sessions with him this week when he gets a chance. I imagine his thought process about it will be fairly similar to yours.

Will check out that website also, thanks very much :)
 

MAXtmpu

Midshipman
Agreed, it is definitely something that can be practiced. When doing these though I always think, it would be really handy to have Rachel Riley levels of ability right now :rolleyes:

Thanks again for the tips, very sensible way to break down the problem. Funnily enough my father is a retired professor of physics and so is very good with this kind of thing, so planning to have a couple of cramming sessions with him this week when he gets a chance. I imagine his thought process about it will be fairly similar to yours.

Will check out that website also, thanks very much :)
Awesome. Physicists tend to break down problems into first principles and build the solution or technique up from there. We also all tend to think the same, haha. He might also spot some techniques for some questions too that others won't think of.

Best of luck again.
 

jnc90

Midshipman
Awesome. Physicists tend to break down problems into first principles and build the solution or technique up from there. We also all tend to think the same, haha. He might also spot some techniques for some questions too that others won't think of.

Best of luck again.
One more last minute question - Been reading some people saying that arriving in smart casual is fine as long as you are suited up for dinner and thereafter. Others say that most candidates were already fully suited up at the station. What was your experience with this - I'm going straight from work and a 4 hour train ride including a tube across London so ideally I really don't want to be in a full suit the whole way. Was planning to arrive in smart jeans and a shirt. Do you think this is acceptable?
 

MAXtmpu

Midshipman
One more last minute question - Been reading some people saying that arriving in smart casual is fine as long as you are suited up for dinner and thereafter. Others say that most candidates were already fully suited up at the station. What was your experience with this - I'm going straight from work and a 4 hour train ride including a tube across London so ideally I really don't want to be in a full suit the whole way. Was planning to arrive in smart jeans and a shirt. Do you think this is acceptable?
I remember a few guys arriving in smart casual dress with no issues, but everybody got changed into smart dress upon arrival. I personally arrived in a suit.

I dressed in smart casual clothing during the tests. We were told that we didn't have to wear our suits during the tests as it "wasn't an interview", so I wore smart trousers (not jeans) with an oxford shirt and a light jumper. Dressing without a tie made me feel a little more relaxed during the tests, but you might find wearing a suit makes you feel better. It is up to you what you wear on the day, but don't go too informal - jeans and trainers are probably unacceptable.

If you've got a long journey including the tube, it is absolutely reasonable to not arrive in a suit. Just change to your suit when you arrive (and allow time for this, I remember the briefing on the first day taking place at ~1600).
 

jnc90

Midshipman
I remember a few guys arriving in smart casual dress with no issues, but everybody got changed into smart dress upon arrival. I personally arrived in a suit.

I dressed in smart casual clothing during the tests. We were told that we didn't have to wear our suits during the tests as it "wasn't an interview", so I wore smart trousers (not jeans) with an oxford shirt and a light jumper. Dressing without a tie made me feel a little more relaxed during the tests, but you might find wearing a suit makes you feel better. It is up to you what you wear on the day, but don't go too informal - jeans and trainers are probably unacceptable.

If you've got a long journey including the tube, it is absolutely reasonable to not arrive in a suit. Just change to your suit when you arrive (and allow time for this, I remember the briefing on the first day taking place at ~1600).
Great thanks again! Surprised that it was seen as acceptable to wear more casual clothing during the tests but good to know I shouldn't stand out too much if I turn up at the station n jeans and an oxford shirt at least.

My train doesn't arrive at Grantham until 17:40, hoping I won't miss anything as the AFCO booked the tickets for me so assume they have taken all that stuff into account. Just reading through the guidance again though and sounds like I could be pushing it to make dinner between 18:00-18:30. Got some snacks with me for tomorrow but may have to take some food for tonight as well just in case.
 

MAXtmpu

Midshipman
Great thanks again! Surprised that it was seen as acceptable to wear more casual clothing during the tests but good to know I shouldn't stand out too much if I turn up at the station n jeans and an oxford shirt at least.

My train doesn't arrive at Grantham until 17:40, hoping I won't miss anything as the AFCO booked the tickets for me so assume they have taken all that stuff into account. Just reading through the guidance again though and sounds like I could be pushing it to make dinner between 18:00-18:30. Got some snacks with me for tomorrow but may have to take some food for tonight as well just in case.
I was fully intending to wear a suit for the tests, but the Lt Cdr stressed it was more important to be comfortable for the long tests. Be prepared for either option.

If the AFCO booked your tickets its all out of your hands, so don't worry about it. I'm sure they'll accommodate you just fine regardless.

Best of luck.
 

jnc90

Midshipman
I was fully intending to wear a suit for the tests, but the Lt Cdr stressed it was more important to be comfortable for the long tests. Be prepared for either option.

If the AFCO booked your tickets its all out of your hands, so don't worry about it. I'm sure they'll accommodate you just fine regardless.

Best of luck.
Yeah, think I may do the same then if they are giving the same advice on the day.
Checked my tickets and I can use any off peak train so going to get a slightly earlier one just in case of delays, ideally don't want to be getting the last shuttle to Cranwell.

Thanks again for all the advice ;)
 

jnc90

Midshipman
Sadly didn’t get a pass for the role I applied for with the RAF (RPAS Pilot) but actually scored higher for Pilot, passing all individual tests, although still under the overall cut off by 7 points.

I did ask how that would transfer to my Navy Pilot application and he wasn’t sure so will speak to them when I get a chance. Not holding out much hope though as I scored 105 so not a very competitive score but did read somewhere that the Navy cut off is lower than RAF?
 

MAXtmpu

Midshipman
Sadly didn’t get a pass for the role I applied for with the RAF (RPAS Pilot) but actually scored higher for Pilot, passing all individual tests, although still under the overall cut off by 7 points.

I did ask how that would transfer to my Navy Pilot application and he wasn’t sure so will speak to them when I get a chance. Not holding out much hope though as I scored 105 so not a very competitive score but did read somewhere that the Navy cut off is lower than RAF?
Sorry to hear that you didn't get it mate. Its a monumental day so be proud of yourself for seeing it through.

The Navy's cutoff is the same as the RAF's at 112 as far as I know, but speak to your ACLO for confirmation.

So long as you are young enough to remain elligible, you can simply resit next year if you really want to stay committed.

I took my first FATs fail to heart terribly and didn't recover for a long time. Take a bit of time to think of a plan: do you wait it out to resit? Or change direction? Your ACLO will help with this a lot.

Remember what F.A.I.L stands for: "first attempt in learning" (sorry for the cliché but its bloody true!).
 
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