Apparently the sinking of the General Belgrano caused the Falklands War

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by Tomahawk, Oct 14, 2014.

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  1. Always interesting to hear the other side of a story. Even when it is patently mis-guided in certain ways and has it's own axe to grind.

    Very interesting point regarding the Welsh-speaking community in Patagonia though. And as long as you don't mention the Falklands, I am sure they are as welcoming of cash-rich tourists regardless of their origin or background. Just like any other place.
     
  2. Seaweed

    Seaweed War Hero Book Reviewer

    Args still in cloud-cuckoo land. Pity the Indy gave space to this tripe.
     
  3. Levers_Aligned

    Levers_Aligned War Hero Moderator

    You don't think Clarkson is a bit of a bell-end, though? Strange coincidence he has that license very plate. If he could have got hold of 'I982FKL' instead of 'H982FKL' how good would that have been, eh?

    And (as has been widely documented) the Argentine Junta were agreed right up to the moment Belgrano was torpedoed that they would cease fire to negotiate, and had indicated this to Alexander Haig via Nicanor Cotsa Mendez.

    Don't lose focus on a few things here. The Argentines also don't really need much to kick off some sort of reaction when it comes to the islands. The older generation, anyway. The youngsters aren't much fucked about the islands and don't want another costly dust up with us. It should also never leave the thoughts of those who like to heap the liability for the conflict on a shady bunch of jingoistic ********* in uniform whom the British government knew about. But the warning signs were all there, none less than words said to the CO of the old Endurance in October 1981 which came from a diplomat which were transferred to Thatcher's government (the ones who helped her rubber stamp the Nott Review which, if implemented fully, would have meant we'd have never been able to recover the islands) and was blithely ignored. When they invaded in 1982, we were almost drying the ink on the sale of Invincible, we'd almost laid off Pompey dockyard, most of the DD/FF and LPH capability was ready for flogging and the stock of warships we did own were (as was proven) clearly not up for the job. The culpability for this lot lay at the feet of our own government, a small factor many like to conveniently overlook. We'd also helped build and train two of their very own Type 42 destroyers.

    We acknowledge that fact that the islanders want to remain British, and the Argentines should do so as well. But lauding cock-ends like Clarkson, who is basically a mardy-arsed, curmudgeonly blowhard who revels in his own arrogant agenda for the entertainment of the small-minded is (in my humble opinion) never conducive toward good understanding and relations between two nations who will, in the long run, need each other if one jar of beneficial oil is to be extracted from the Falkland Basin. If he were that arsed, maybe he'd like to drag his 'journalistic' fat head across to Northern Syria with a Humvee plated with ALH 15 AWNKR or something. They wouldn't be baseball batting his windows in then.

    levers
     
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  4. Leavers, in Hammond interview this morning it was explained that the BE11 END Number plate was going to be fixed to clarksons car during a Car Football Match, ergo describing Clarkson as the Bell End.

    I actually believe that number plate on the porche was a co-incidence, stranger things have happened, Clarkson did not go out and buy the car, it was bought by the production team, the 1st time he saw the car was when it got delivered to him in Argentina. The Argentine government need very little lead to have a go at the British over ownership of the Falklands.

    As for the Junta being willing to enter negotiations prior to the sinking of the Belgrano, I am sure they were, but would they have been meaningful, or would it have been a delaying tactic to allow them to dig in deeper and use the age old adage of possession is 9/10th of the law, and if they were so willing to enter negotiations why was the battle group in the vicinity?
     
  5. Levers_Aligned

    Levers_Aligned War Hero Moderator

    The whole effort whiffs badly of a set-up, with the registration through to the 'angry mobs' and their hasty exit. I have no doubt in post-production a massive Clarkson-heavy sardonic slant will be basted over the top of it for good measure and the UKIP-annointed, who believe every ******* word the git utters. I don't mind Top Gear, as a programme about vehicles. But with every episode it becomes more like Loaded and less like a car programme and the BBC are too shit scared to pull the plug on something that has such gravity.

    I'm not licensing Argentina's invasion here, before anyone gets all erect about it. They were ******* doing that and it cost 255 good UK lives to get the daft bastards off the islands. And they need to get it that they'll never get them back as long as the islanders want to be British, which seems to me like forever. But cretins like Clarkson stirring something up like this just to get headlines is low-end, even for him. And Hammond will do just what he's told as far as his reliable eye witness account is concerned. Do they expect us to believe that no one amongst the highly trained, media savvy clipboard carrying production team cottoned on to any relevance regarding the plates? Or they did, and it was, "Ohh, lets see how they wear this one, eh?"

    levers
     
  6. I admit it is more than possible that the number plate was spotted by someone, but the way I understand it, the presenters were made aware of the challenge and chose the model they wished to undertake it in, then it gets fobbed off to a member of the production crew to source the car. From what I can gather there were only 2 of the Porche models Clarkson had claimed as his preference readily available, and the one bought was the better deal. It should be easily shown that the number plate belonged to the vehicle pre purchase (and had not been recently reregistered) , and IF the BBC can produce the docs to prove that, the matter should be put to bed (at least on this side of the Atlantic)

    TG normally have to be forced to apologise for their cock-ups, on this occasion they have come forward rather sharpish and attempted to explain the event leading up to the incident, but because Clarkson was involved, every one is immediately tar and feathering him, well not everyone, parts of the media, the TG haters, The Clarkson haters and the Argentinians.............
     
  7. Shame they didn't tell the captains of the General Belgrano and the 25 de Mayo, who were out and about trying to co-ordinate an attack on the Task Force (foiled by a lack of wind and the 25 de Mayo's clapped-out machinery that day). Or mentioned it to the UK, who might then have taken one of several opportunities to tell Wreford-Brown to hold fire and risk losing contact as the Belgrano group crossed the Burdwood Bank. Or stopped Admiral Lombardo from ordering a "massive attack" on the British task force, which in the absence of other evidence was the best intel we had on Argentine intentions. In fact, the whole situation from the Argentine side reeks of Costa Mendez proposing a cease fire in what I'm prepared to believe was good faith, while behind him the Argentine navy were still planning to give the British an almighty kicking, and Conqueror sank the Belgrano before the left hand and right hand worked out what each other was doing and sorted out some sort of deconfliction.


    Similarly on the British side, I'm a great believer in not blaming conspiracy when ignorance and cockup is a suitable solution; Thatcher, Nott et al were facing an economic crisis and needed to cut costs everywhere including defence, while still staying on the right side of Reagan, Weinberger et al, and a Navy able to involve itself in the other hemisphere doubtless seemed like a luxury at the time (seriously, given the problems at the time, how much Cabinet discussion - let alone any public debate - actually mentioned the Falklands at all until March 1982?)

    The famous tale of how the Air Force denied any knowledge of the Falklands, the Army glumly said it was too far way... and Lewin marched into COBRA in full 1As with medals and sword (lucky coincidence he'd had some ceremonial event that morning) to tell Thatcher that the Royal Navy could send a task force within forty-eight hours is probably true, but the Navy would have been quite happy if the Argentinians had subsequently come to the table and negotiated an acceptable settlement in the face of the RN arriving down south, just as the threat of an SSN in the area had calmed them down five years before without anyone shooting anything at anybody.

    I actually, and to some people controversially, credit Nott with some integrity: he was given the directive to strip the Forces down to the immediate task of helping NATO fight the Red Horde should Ivan roll westward and did a passable job of doing so; when that turned out to be a Really Bad Idea because, y'know, Falklands, he fell on his sword and resigned rather than clinging on bleating that it was all Maggie's fault and he was only obeying orders. If you're going to cut the money for the Armed Forces, then have the guts to correspondingly cut of their some tasks as well, and accept the responsibility for when those forsaken little outcrops of shepherds and kelpers you'd overlooked or decided to leave exposed turn out to be a cause celebre.

    I'd even say we could do with another Nott today... but there's only so many fights I want to start in one evening.
     
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  8. Levers_Aligned

    Levers_Aligned War Hero Moderator

    The capability of the ARA to launch it's massive attack on the TF was never an issue. They knew we had SSNs in the region in mid April and were not much arsed about risking a bloodbath. All this nonsense about 'pincer group attacks' is speculative and doesn't align with the fact that GB had orders to return to Ushuia, and was doing just that. The Argentines were in no shape at all to take us on at sea, Venticinco de Mayo or not.

    I am not suggesting a conspiracy at all. But the DWP 1981 was a tremendously short-sighted venture - Invincible sold, possibly Illustrious mothballed and Ark cancelled. Both LPDs scrapped, Bootnecks phased out, cancelling of T43 and T44 and Seadart II, steam fleet and small ships almost gone by 1985. That was rubberstamped by the PM - wonderful, fragrant Margaret Thatcher, the one whom so many say put the 'Great' back into Britain, yet was on her beam ends on 03 Apr 1982 when she realised she had no cards left in her pack after one deal. As someone who was serving when DWP 1981 was put through the house (and with a completely Marxist Labour Party, who was going to oppose such a disarmament?) we were suddenly spending a shitload of time bolted to Fountain Lake and not doing the shit that I'd joined up to do, namely get to sea and do sailory stuff.

    I'd begrudgingly agree with your comments above but all politicians are wholesale scum in my opinion.

    levers
     
  9. I think the last paragraph in the article says what most think, those that do not know what happened should keep their ill-informed noses out?

    β€œThe conflict in the South Atlantic – and especially the memory of those who lost their lives in the war on both sides – deserve to be treated not with malicious mockery, but with understanding and respect.”

    Clarkson would love this thread as the only thing in his book worse than bad press is no press at all?
     
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  10. .........The famous tale of how.......Lewin marched into COBRA............to tell Thatcher that the Royal Navy could send a task force within forty-eight hours is probably true............


    But I don't think it IS true. Lewin, who was CDS, was out of the country - and it was Leach as 1SL who went to see the PM.
     
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  11. Seadog

    Seadog War Hero Moderator

    You are correct Wightsparker, 'twas Leach who was 1SL who gave the PM her balls. Lewin was CDS and in New Zealand.
     
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