Any Views On Mike Critchley's letter?

F169

War Hero
To the Telegraph. I fully agree with his line on 'Information Superiority'.

Navy needs to get its laid-up patrol vessels into the Gulf

Sir - Having witnessed one of the most embarrassing incidents for the Royal Navy at sea for many years, with the Government now impotent to secure the release of our Servicemen in Iran, I suggest that it is madness to have laid up at Portsmouth three vessels (Brecon, Dulverton and Cottesmore) that were converted at great cost as patrol vessels to intercept suspect shipping.

We deployed one of our remaining frigates in the fleet, armed with the latest sensors and weapons (Goalkeeper, Harpoon, Seawolf and torpedo tubes) to protect oil flowing from Iraq, but were humiliated by small craft with the simplest small arms.

Our multi-million-pound vessel was unable to join the action and defend our men for lack of water under her keel, whereas something smaller would have been appropriate. Once again, the Treasury is not giving our Servicemen the kit to do the job asked of them.

These three vessels at Portsmouth should be returned to service as soon as possible for deployment to the Gulf or even the Straits of Dover - wherever the terrorist threat exists.

After the Falklands war 25 years ago, we have learnt once again that the Ministry of Defence does not have the "information superiority" it is so keen to talk about.

Get the right ships off the sales list and back defending our interests at home and abroad. The cost is minimal.

Lt-Cdr Mike Critchley RN Rtd, Warship World magazine, Liskeard,
 

Jarhead

War Hero
sounds to me like the round peg in the round hole - except with the British (sorry to say this but thats how it looks from here) bound and determined to reduce its Navy to a set of tugs, it will probably never happen.
 
They won't listen! The money's already committed elsewhere and the income from any ship sales will have been factored into the Budget!

The short road of Appeasement is the long road to War. The government have chosen short-term savings from cutting defence expenditure in the delusionary hope that there will be no future major wars involving the UK. They may have a kind of peace now, they will get war later, and any savings will be more than wiped out by the investment needed just for Britain to survive. Our weakness is watched by our enemies who are drawing conclusions that our government would prefer to pretend are not being reached.
 
Fully agree with Mike Critchley

If you want to do Gunboat diplomacy send a gunboat not a high tech
state of the art all singing all dancing warship .
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Some P2000's would be a better bet, it's not as if we're short of them or don't already use them for the job.
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
letthecatoutofthebag said:
Oil_Slick said:
Some P2000's would be a better bet, it's not as if we're short of them or don't already use them for the job.
Except the'd hardly be fast - you'd be luky to get more than 10 kts out of them with the amient water temperature out there... Dasher and Pursuer in Cyprus have significant problems keeping their diesels cool and this limits there top speed.
The Hunts are hardly quick either, 15kts with a following wind and I'd imagine the same problems with water temp would limit that too.
 

Bergen

ADC
F169 said:
To the Telegraph. I fully agree with his line on 'Information Superiority'.

Navy needs to get its laid-up patrol vessels into the Gulf

Sir - Having witnessed one of the most embarrassing incidents for the Royal Navy at sea for many years, with the Government now impotent to secure the release of our Servicemen in Iran, I suggest that it is madness to have laid up at Portsmouth three vessels (Brecon, Dulverton and Cottesmore) that were converted at great cost as patrol vessels to intercept suspect shipping.

We deployed one of our remaining frigates in the fleet, armed with the latest sensors and weapons (Goalkeeper, Harpoon, Seawolf and torpedo tubes) to protect oil flowing from Iraq, but were humiliated by small craft with the simplest small arms.

Our multi-million-pound vessel was unable to join the action and defend our men for lack of water under her keel, whereas something smaller would have been appropriate. Once again, the Treasury is not giving our Servicemen the kit to do the job asked of them.

These three vessels at Portsmouth should be returned to service as soon as possible for deployment to the Gulf or even the Straits of Dover - wherever the terrorist threat exists.

After the Falklands war 25 years ago, we have learnt once again that the Ministry of Defence does not have the "information superiority" it is so keen to talk about.

Get the right ships off the sales list and back defending our interests at home and abroad. The cost is minimal.

Lt-Cdr Mike Critchley RN Rtd, Warship World magazine, Liskeard,
Cornwall was probably not the best tool in the box for this particular mission, but this had less to do with ship type and more to do with poor tactics than anyone is admitting. Cornwall had a Lynx that should have been the deciding factor in this incident. Where was it? Why was Cornwall 10nm away? [the equivalent of her being in Plymouth Sound and the boats at the Eddystone Light]. It would be interesting to know what heading the ship that was being searched was on, weather conditions and particularly wind direction. A lot of questions and maybe they will be answered in the sweet bye and bye.

The Iranians aren't dumb and there is more to this than meets the eye. If cargo was being crane-transferred from the ship to a lighter warped alongside then I am assuming that the RN boats could only board from the other side. If this put them on the blind-side to boats coming out of Iran at high-speed then it is not surprising that they were caught. It strikes me as odd that a ship bringing cars into Iraq should drop it's hook so close to Iran and that the Iranians then knew precisely when to strike and had apparently factored out the Lynx. Strange....just thinking aloud.

RM
 

silverfox

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
The area we need to concentrate on is the actual contact area. Having an MCMV about won't make a difference due to speed and limited firepower. We need to make sure that we have the fire power, and more importantly, the numbers up front where it matters.

Instead of doing a boarding with 2 boats, both of whom are empty whilst the inspection team are on the target, lets do it with 4 boats, or 5. The other boats are the ones setting up a security perimeter around the inspected vessel, give them crew served weapons and the ROE to use them. We need the numbers on the ground.

As for attack helicopters - well without being disrespectful to my aviation buddies - I have witnessed .50 cal firings against a stationary target and would take my chances in a highly manouverable 40kt go fast any day...............do you not notice that in Bond movies for example, he's the one outwitting the bird in the chopper, rather than flying it himself....

Park an LSL at anchor up in the business end and she can provide support for months on end - this was how perimeter security was established and maintained during T200 by the way - and the FF can go and do other things...
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
silverfox said:
Park an LSL at anchor up in the business end and she can provide support for months on end - this was how perimeter security was established and maintained during T200 by the way - and the FF can go and do other things...

An LSL with ORC's and RHIB's would be probably the best option, use the ORC's for force protection, fast, armoured and lots of firepower. And as you say, the ROE's need a severe looking at, they are barking and ensure the opposition always retain the innitiative throughout the contact.
 

Hawkeye

Lantern Swinger
Whilst I agree in principle with Mike Critchley as we move forward into different types of warfare away from conventional wars with huge superpowers lobbing 4.5 shells over the horizon at each other we should equip our forces with craft fit for purpose. Design and build excellent FAST patrol boats with relevant armourment to deal with this type of threat and to be able to deal with terrorist threats as well.
What is the point of having huge expensive weapon platforms if they are not capable of doing this job.

Agree with the sentiment - would just point out that reason 4.5" was put back onto ships post Falklands was for the purpose of Fire Support ashore. As it is foreseen that we will be operating in the littoral for some considerable time to come, a 4.5 (or bigger) is seen as a good thing...
 

smoothbore

Lantern Swinger
I put this post on another forum on 30 march:

"Perhaps there is a case for the the MoD procuring a number of small FACs (HMS' Cutlass, Scimiter, Sabre and Tenacity type vessels spring to mind) to provide force protection to the boarding parties in these waters. Cornwall appears to have been constrained from intervening by shallow water (I read somewhere) but FACs may have been able to station themselves more closely to the problem area and react quickly enough to interspose themselves between the Iranaians and the Boarding party RIBs.

Corwall etc would still provide the C3 but the FACs would provide local deterrence and defence.

Such FAC type vessels may also have utility as force protection assets in helping prevent terrorist attacks of the sort that hit the USS Cole several years ago"

Have not heard anything that changes my mind.
 

silverfox

War Hero
Moderator
Book Reviewer
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/weapons/a/marinecraft.htm

This is the sort of bad boy we need there is also a more heavily armed escort version but I couldn't find any pics. An LSL could look after a dozen or so of these plus crews.

We don't need to over cook this thing and create a new capability complete with new types of caft, training burdens etc etc - we just need to re-equip what we already have.

Can we drive RHIBs? - yes
Can we fit bigger guns? - find out - but easy to buy if we can't
Do we have bigger guns? - yes
Do we have people who are trained to fire bigger guns? - yes, in the form of Royal.

Get me CinC's phone number.....
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
silverfox said:
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/weapons/a/marinecraft.htm

This is the sort of bad boy we need there is also a more heavily armed escort version but I couldn't find any pics. An LSL could look after a dozen or so of these plus crews.
The Royals already have these, twin GPMG's at the pointy end and a couple of .50's

 

Hawkeye

Lantern Swinger
Oil_Slick said:
silverfox said:
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/weapons/a/marinecraft.htm

This is the sort of bad boy we need there is also a more heavily armed escort version but I couldn't find any pics. An LSL could look after a dozen or so of these plus crews.
The Royals already have these, twin GPMG's at the pointy end and a couple of .50's


Yes these are the ones we need where are they then ? why are they not used in this instance?
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Hawkeye said:
Oil_Slick said:
silverfox said:
http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/weapons/a/marinecraft.htm

This is the sort of bad boy we need there is also a more heavily armed escort version but I couldn't find any pics. An LSL could look after a dozen or so of these plus crews.
The Royals already have these, twin GPMG's at the pointy end and a couple of .50's


Yes these are the ones we need where are they then ?

Swanning around off the Devon coast probably

why are they not used in this instance?

You'll have to ask Their Lordships that one
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
MoD_RSS Views sought on Sizewell C nuclear power station permits MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Migration Advisory Committee seeks views on skills shortages MoD News 0
MoD_RSS GAD’s clients share their views of our service MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Government response to AHDB request for views published MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Ofqual seeks views on GCSE and A level grading proposals for 2020 MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Ofsted seeks views on proposals to revise post-inspection arrangements MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Education and Skills Funding Agency calls for views on subcontracting MoD News 0
MoD_RSS OISC to seek views on its Complaints Scheme MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Committee seeks views on charity accounting framework MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Government seeks views on cat microchipping MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Call for views for independent review into local authority audit MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Senior clinicians’ pensions: government asks for views on new proposals MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Call for Humber communities to give views on tidal flood risk MoD News 0
MoD_RSS M25 Junction 10/A3 Wisley interchange improvement - People interested in the proposal can register to give their views MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Norfolk Boreas Power Station - People interested in the proposal can register to give their views MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Adding folic acid to flour: public asked views MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Call for views on new digital Functional Skills qualifications MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Government calls on shopworkers for views on violence at work MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Restrictions on adverts for food high in fat, sugar and salt: public asked for views MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Autistic people asked for their views to help transform support MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Passenger views sought on bid to extend pay-as-you-go on rail network MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Restricting promotions of food linked to childhood obesity: public asked views MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Press release: 26,000 share their views in Thames Crossing consultation MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Press release: Views sought on new memorial for victims of terror MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Defence Secretary views Exercise Pearl Dagger in Bahrain MoD News 0
Naval_Families_Federation Your Views Wanted: CarillionAmey - Poll Closing Soon! Current Affairs 9
Naval_Gazer Number of views for threads not incrementing Site Issues 5
scouse Phone hacking, your views Diamond Lil's 5
trelawney126 Why is Bliar still expounding his Views Diamond Lil's 2
Legs_yes_that_Legs Decompression - Your views The Quarterdeck 0
soleil Major Review Seeks Views On Campaign Medals The Quarterdeck 29
J Mine Warfare Specialist (submariner) Views? Joining Up - Royal Navy Recruiting 22
WarfareSpecialistToBe RN' views on Tattoo's? The Quarterdeck 14
defenceheadquarters New MOD Online Engagement Guidelines - Your views sought Current Affairs 6
B THE SCENIC VIEWS OF MOTORING Current Affairs 7
finknottle Gordon Brown to announce Iraq war enquiry (Your Views) Current Affairs 67
finknottle What are your views? Current Affairs 122
A AACC your views The Corps 17
Ant_H Views/Opinions on Warfare & Logistics (Officer) Joining Up - Royal Navy Recruiting 38
F JPA - good or bad... your views ..... dont forget to vote! The Gash Barge 2
J Any views on charity for your own ends? The Gash Barge 15
silverfox Soldiers views on Iraq Current Affairs 1
Bad CO Site Logo - Your Views Please The Quarterdeck 74
davy_longshanks Regulars' views of the RNR Royal Naval Reserve (RNR) 3
MoD_RSS Foreign Secretary meeting with US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo MoD News 0
soleil The Times: "Captain Mike Booth, 70: Helicopter Pilot In The Falklands, Naval Attaché And Cabinetmaker" The Fleet Air Arm 3
MoD_RSS PM meeting with Vice President Mike Pence: 5 September 2019 MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Speech: Queen’s birthday celebration 2019 in Nur-Sultan, Kazakhstan: Mike Gifford's speech MoD News 0
MoD_RSS Speech: Jeremy Hunt's opening remarks at press conference with Mike Pompeo MoD News 0
MoD_RSS News story: Government reappoints Mike Clancy as member of the Acas Council MoD News 0
Similar threads


















































Top