Another nutty diatribe from Lewis Page

#41
Greenie said:
Just a few words especially about the use of mercantile hulls .

In ww2 one of the finest uses of mercantile build was the Escort Carrier
a flat top installed on a selected hull and also fitted with a hangar and lifts.

With todays array of weaponry and sub hunting capabilities it would possibly form a cheap and effective way of combatting submarines and also provide long range air defence or early warning for surface units .

Don't really agree with Lewis Page but as mentioned he does have a couple of viable points.

I await incoming :D
G
As you are probably aware, the US versions were called 'Woolworth Carriers' but were otherwise known as 'Kaiser Coffins'. One hit or other serious mishap such as a fire, collision or grounding and everyone was either toast or rapidly forced to learn how to breathe underwater - think Atlantic Conveyor. Also, those were the days when aircraft were shipped in crates for re-assembly by a few guys with spanners. Modern day aircraft are a tad heavier and more complex with all the structural and infrastructural measures that implies.

Most critically, the price of any modern warship's hull (steel and air) is relatively insignificant compared to the kit inside or on it, even with all the structural modifications that would be required. That same kit would be necessary whether fitted in a mercantile or a purpose-built hull.
 
#42
Naval_Gazer said:
Greenie said:
Just a few words especially about the use of mercantile hulls .

In ww2 one of the finest uses of mercantile build was the Escort Carrier
a flat top installed on a selected hull and also fitted with a hangar and lifts.

With todays array of weaponry and sub hunting capabilities it would possibly form a cheap and effective way of combatting submarines and also provide long range air defence or early warning for surface units .

Don't really agree with Lewis Page but as mentioned he does have a couple of viable points.

I await incoming :D
G
As you probably know, the US versions were called 'Woolworth Carriers' but were otherwise known as 'Kaiser Coffins'. One hit or other serious mishap such as a fire, collision or grounding and everyone was either toast or rapidly having to learn how to hold their breath underwater - think Atlantic Conveyor. Also, those were the days when aircraft were shipped in crates for re-assembly by a few guys with spanners. Modern day aircraft are a tad heavier and more complex with all the structural and infrastructural measures that implies.

Most critically, the price of any warship's hull (steel and air) is relatively insignificant compared to the kit inside it, even with all the structural modifications that would be required. That same kit would be necessary whether fitted in a mercantile or a purpose-built hull.
The Brit 'woolworth carriers were modified after commissioning to better
safety standards after losing one by accident in the Clyde .Losses by war damage causes were minimal .The USN used them in all roles with great
success and quite few casualties .

However ships will be lost by hostile or other means depending on the amount of damage sustained and ability to recover and maintain watertight boundaries . Atlantic Conveyor was not a 'warship' as such more a very quickly requisitioned merchant vessel enabled to carry spare aircraft. Sailing in a fleet of ships that did not unfortunately have any ship borne long range AEW aircraft. Nor were they expecting any aircraft launched anti ship missile attacks .

Am old enough to remember the Girdle Ness --war time Hull refitted to
carry the sea slug trials oufit --very easy conversion and ample for her new role.

G
 
#43
Greenie said:
Thanks for the pic's chaps ----the usual Big and Expensive creations
An excuse for a fleet carrier
Escort carriers were basic aircraft carriers -- fighting ships and not expensive to build or outfit . They did have a catapult fitted on some of them aswell. Safety in numbers as they say.
Cheap and cheerful mass produced after the war they were rebuilt as general cargo carriers .


The war builds were invented by the brits and included
MAC ships ---Merchant Aircraft Carriers
Tankers or Grain ships with flat top and they also carried a mercantile cargo aswell.

G

Hactually, Ocean is related to the wartime el cheapo carriers. A hull built to commercial standards and a very basic aviation fit. If it was loaded up with Merlins for ASW and Apaches for ASuW as Page suggests for his mooted wünderschiff, it would still be a large and very vulnerable target and not much use to man no beast.

Page may well believe he is the most gifted naval visionary since Noah paddled his boat, but there's a very good reason all the world sticks with Carriers, Destroyers and Frigates.
 
#44
The Argus above, wouldnt really stand a chance against a gun boat let alone a sub. Her was only an avaition training ship, where the different landing spots were supposed to replicate other ships. She has had to be significantly modified to bring her up to RN standards on damage control, shes had extra watertight doors fitted, cutting 2 hanger in half, no 1 hanger is now a hospital, no 1 lift has gone, 4 hanger is a fridge deck now, all this has been done to bring her up to scratch as she couldnt cope when a flight was embarked and hundreds of nurses. so in reality it looked cheap to convert a commercial ship (which it wasnt) to grey funnel line, but in reality over the years the money spent could easily paid for two of these ships built from the start to RN standards. and if anyone on here has been on the Argus, she is one messed up ship, the accommodation is a mess with all the additions been welded on. Incidentally isnt the RN starting to conform to Lloyds regs, (one of the type 22's has had a beam welded to her foc'sle) all seems to be a grey area now. there doesnt seem to be a commercial build and a separate Naval build. Transverse frames used to be I beams on RN ships whereas commercial ships had L beam frames (hence the mod to M clamps). I dont think that you can convert a commercial ship to an RN ship, as had been stated before on here, once you add all the electrical, watertight stuff etc, youve got a warship in all but the metal work and it'll end up the same cost. the only money saved would be in the steelwork, where you wont have to order special steel hence get charged more. On a commercial ship there is a rule that dictates how far frames are apart throughout the length of a ship, couldnt imagine the RN having their frames so far apart and the longtitudinals, the RN would all have to carry 6x6 wood.
 

Purple_twiglet

War Hero
Moderator
#46
"And who can forget Engadine? Useful in her time but hardly a capable AD, AS or ASu unit with comprehensive C3I facilities."

Interestestingly, (and seriously O/T) Engadines war role has recently been revealed in declassified papers. She was to have worked carrying a Govenment PYTHON group - group of senior ministers etc, to ensure continuity of Government during wartime. Quite a useful little platform - I wonder if Argus had a similar role envisaged during the 80s?
 
#47
Re RFA ENGADINE :wink: :wink: When we embarked with 737 Sdn Sea Kings from HMS Osprey, No Sundodgers were safe !! PT :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

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