An extra 14 days, is it two weeks too far?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by Potential_Officer, Jun 11, 2008.

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    So Brown won his crunch vote, and we are one step closer to what I think is the internment of Suspects, and creating a fantastic recruiter for Muslim extremists, who claim we are prejudiced against them.

    I was always against 90 days, but 28 days seemed to find a reasonable balance, between protection of the state, and protection of the suspects rights, now how long before the Government change their mind and claim that it is still not long enough and they need the full 90 days?

    Surely a month is long enough to find enough to charge the suspects with something, or perhaps the Government is eroding civil liberties instead of funding our Security Agencies enough so that they have the manpower to build a case to bring to charge in 28 days.
  2. for once in my life Sir i agree with you :thumright: snotty forever
  3. The danger with laws like this is that while Mr Brown can say it will only be used in exceptional circumstances what merits an exceptional circumstance and although it will be argued that it is to protect the public from extremists what is the definition of an extermist?

    Theoretically it could be the thin end of a very big wedge but unlike some other countries when we have an election it is usually fair and if this power is abused then you have the option to kick the government into touch and vote for someone who will change the law.

    In the words of the song though, "The public want what the public get" ......

  4. A travesty of justice and a rape of freedom. Brown and his cohorts have torn up the Magna Carta in another full-frontal assault on our liberties. The crassness of offering those who are wrongly imprisoned £3000 a day (where the hell does Labour suddenly find this contingency fund from????) is to put a (cheap) price on personal and social freedom. From what anyone has seen, there isn't anyone who advocates this extension, practically or morally.

    The soon Brown calls the ruddy election, the sooner we can be rid of this pseudo-junta.
  5. You've just saved me typing that. My sentiments exactly!
  6. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Well being as I like to assume the role of Devil's Advocate, I am not against the 42-day rule. The important thing to remember here is that the detention rules were introduced when investigations did not necessitate this amount of time, and suspects could be detained for the shortest amount of time in order to obtain the necessary evidence against them, before being released/charged.

    With the risk of terrorist offenders growing, the need to detain them for a period where evidence from computer files and inter-agency intelligence reports will take longer to obtain and evaluate. If that means detaining them to prevent them from potentially sabotaging the evidence or committing further offences, then so be it.

    And the important thing to remember here is that the detention is authorised UP TO 42 days, if the detention is authorised at all.

    It surprises me that many other threads call for the Police to be more aggressive in their fight against criminals, to use the full arm of the law against offenders, and along comes a valuable tool like this and you lot don't agree!

    Crimefighters should take the 'fight' to the crime - give the Police the right tools and equipment (physically and legally) then they can do the job they're paid to do, more effectively. As Sean Connery said, "you don't take a knife to a gunfight". You fight the criminals face on, in a real and aggressive way, not with computers and penalty notices.
  7. Neue Arbiet - Selling British Civil Rights by the Pound
  8. I bet you all wouldn't be against it if it was the chav that broke you wing mirror, you would all be say 'yeeeeeeeeees', well I would anyway.
  9. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    This 'proposed' amendment to the Act would only be used in specific circumstances, not in every case where detention was required for a suspect.

    And as mentioned, it is merely a proposal at the moment - the Government still faces a battle in the House of Lords.

    The 42-day proposal was passed by 315 MPs to 306 - with votes by the nine DUP MPs proving crucial. Apparently there was uproar in the Commons as the result was announced with Tory and Lib Dem MPs shouting "You've been bought" at the DUP benches. They claim the DUP was offered a string of inducements - including extra financial help for Northern Ireland - to guarantee its support.

    If you have any disagreement with the proposal I suggest you take the matter up with your MP, and find out how they voted, and ask whether their constituents were consulted about it because, despite his faults, Brown is not responsible for every little thing that is wrong with the country; democracy still prevails, and we have to burden some of the blame sometimes.

  10. Hitler used the same arguments when passing his enabling acts
  11. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Sanctimonious prick... :roll:
  12. Not at all. The legislation permitting various bodies to carry out covert surveillance was introduced with similar justifications. It is now being used to spy on people by local councils in relation to bin emptying and school catchment areas.

    Our ancient rights and liberties didn't come about by accident. They came about because the people refused to be governed by tyrants and despots. This is the entire basis of the Rule of Law as opposed to the Rule of Parliament, the Rule of Kings etc.
    Parliament and the Monarch are required to obey the rule of Law in the same way as the man in the street. Constitutional law is the back stop for this and is grounded in Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights and the Coronation Oath amongst others.
    Study those titles and how they came to be for a better understanding of their importance.

    A prohibition on imprisonment without trial is a core element of Common law and constitutional law.
  13. They were saying "there will come a day when we will need more than 28 days".

    But how do they know that in that case they'll only need 42 days?

    My problem isn't with the legislation, it's the record of abuse of terrorist legislation for other purposes, the way fear has been used to force this law through and the arbitrary selection of a number of days.

    Either way, it makes no difference as the Lords will kick it straight back.
  14. sgtpepperband

    sgtpepperband War Hero Moderator Book Reviewer

    Ex-STAB: I am a humanist liberal as much as you, but why complicate the matter with the same old out-of-date references to Magna Carta, Bill of Rights, Constitutional Law and the Coronation Oath, none of which have anything to do with the terrorism laws? If you want to discuss the merits of RIPA then we can do so, but in another thread, already discussed elsewhere in RR.

    But first you have to acknowledge that detention is not imprisonment. Oh, I understand it might be in your vocabulary, but legally, although similar, they are not the same thing, with different legislation relating to each. When you fully understand the topic we are talking about then I look forward to your valuable contribution to his serious thread, rather than rehash the same old conspiracy theorists' claptrap.
  15. OK 42 day approvers… Define 'terrorist Suspect'
  16. okay lets get up to speed. When Libertys head Shami Chakrabati spoke to lawyers working on 2 cases involving terrorist suspects the lawyers said quote" that key evidence came to light on day 4 and 12 on the suspects detention" so why the need for any extention? :thumright:

  17. Charming, but if I recall correctly you are now one her Majesties Constabulary?
  18. The thing about exceptional circumstances is that if you look hard enough, you can almost always find something that is exceptional in the circumstances. This then becomes the norm. When it becomes the norm, you need to increase the powers to deal with the exceptional, vicious circle or what.

    As to detention and imprisonment, yes a very big legal difference, you have to be found guilty before you can be imprisoned!
  19. Human Rights?
    I just want the right to walk down a street without the fear of being blown to bits by some crazed Moslem suicide bomber.
    My eldest daughter missed one of the bombed trains on 7/7 by 30 seconds...

    I dont care about the magna carta or the rule of law, I will gladly allow the government to do whatever they deem necessary to prevent any more attacks, if that includes internment, forcible deportations, or even death squads, I dont care. we are fighting a war, not just in Iraq or Afghanistan, but in London, Birmingham, Bristol....

    The enemy are amongst us, they are supported by their communities and familys, they want our downfall and death, and an islamic state.
    The longer we stand by and wringing our hands about civil libertys the greater the threat. The gloves should come off....we are being laughed at by the terrorists.

    If the odd person is wrongfully arrested, well tough sh1t, its all for the greater good. we should be showing a strong face to those amongst us and those abroad who plot our downfall, instead we argue amongst ourselves and leave the real issues undiscussed.

    Anyone who argues for a stop to immigration is classed as rascist, anyone who tries to raise the subject of the no-go areas being created in some of our cities is accused of stirring up racial hatred... these are the issues that need addressing now, before its too late.
  20. What happens to these men when they're released without charge after 42 days detention? What about the job's they've lost, the families who have been ostracized, their reputations destroyed.

    I agree with Oil_Slick, what is a terrorist suspect? How would you feel if a member of your family was held as a suspected terrorist and you had no idea what they were being detained for.

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