Air France Crash: Maritime Salvage Operation

[sgtpepperband]

RIP to all those lost on board, and I hope the families seek some solace in the salvage attempts by the authorities. :cry:

Anyway, I was reading about the story on BBC and saw this story:

Answers elusive in Air France crash.

Saw the picture, and recognised the silhouette; wasn't aware of any RN Type 22s assisting the operation in that area, but realised it was actually the Brazilian warship F Bosísio (F48), formerly HMS Brazen (F91). Small world...

 

[Bergen]

I was involved in a successful recovery of the black-boxes of a SA 747 in almost 17000 fsw and I have no doubt that those of the Air France flight will be salvaged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Airways_Flight_295

Sad business.

RM

 

[Crabman]

I was involved in a successful recovery of the black-boxes of a SA 747 in almost 17000 fsw and I have no doubt that those of the Air France flight will be salvaged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Airways_Flight_295

Sad business.

RM

I hope they do recover the black box, because without it the cause of the accident can only be guessed. I was intrigued by the news that the French Navy has sent a nuclear boat to help locate the box. What happens when the boat locates it? I somehow don't see a French matelot crawling out to retrieve it.

 

[sussex2]

I have been impressed by some equipment at the disposal of the searchers, the latest Embraer search aircraft for one. Not surprising I suppose as they are Brasilian :roll:
It is only possible to imagine the intensity of the operations from this far away - www.pprune.org has a good thread.

 

[Maxi_77]

I was involved in a successful recovery of the black-boxes of a SA 747 in almost 17000 fsw and I have no doubt that those of the Air France flight will be salvaged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Airways_Flight_295

Sad business.

RM

Whilst I agree that the black boxes etc are recoverable as may well be a lot of the wreckage finding it would have been a lot easier if the airlines had adopted the UK 9.5 Khz pinger rather than the US 37Khz pinger

 

[sussex2]

Unfortunately the U.S. commands such massive clout in the aviation business; for instance I have never heard of the FAA being challenged by a foreign country over some regulation (even though some of them have been plain daft and widely ignored). What the FAA require tends to become the norm.
Luckily if the recorders are recovered and do give up decent information it will be due to the European airlines/regulatory authorities having insisted years ago that more parameters are covered by these devices.

 

[Jimmy_Green]

I was intrigued by the news that the French Navy has sent a nuclear boat to help locate the box. What happens when the boat locates it? I somehow don't see a French matelot crawling out to retrieve it.

I'd imagine they'd Lat & Long it then send down a submersible or ROV.

Saw the picture, and recognised the silhouette; wasn't aware of any RN Type 22s assisting the operation in that area, but realised it was actually the Brazilian warship F Bosísio (F48), formerly HMS Brazen (F91). Small world...

My first ship. Some happy memories from my 2 1/2 years onboard.

 

[Waspie]

Just heard they have found the tail.

Parts spread over 700 sq miles.

Gruesome task.

Question for the knowledgeable. Do 'black boxes' have sonic transponders to assist in recovery?

 

[Bergen]

Just heard they have found the tail.

Parts spread over 700 sq miles.

Gruesome task.

Question for the knowledgeable. Do 'black boxes' have sonic transponders to assist in recovery?

Yes. They will chirp for 30 days.

 

[metimmee]

Just heard they have found the tail.

Parts spread over 700 sq miles.

Gruesome task.

Question for the knowledgeable. Do 'black boxes' have sonic transponders to assist in recovery?

The ones I've seen have a pressure actuated pinger attached to the case, like these.

 

[TimeToJoinUp]

One of the news channels interviewed a French Naval Officer who said that the black box does have some kind of sonic locater but he also stressed that finding it will be no mean feat.

 

[seafarer1939]

I have no idea about aircraft black boxes etc or indeed anything about aircraft in general but it struck me with the question!what is the reason why black boxes are not fitted with a flotation device that triggers on water contact to bring it to the surface?
There must be a good reason but I'd like to know,if weight is a problem then a small marker bouy could be fitted to eject on impact.
Top minds have an answer why not but I'd like to know the reason.
Problem is now the wife is demanding a coach trip abroad to Spain and won't fly.How gross is that?a coach trip all that way.
Hope they get it sorted soon

 

[TimeToJoinUp]

Someone brighter than me wrote:

Many military aircraft are already equipped with ejectable/deployable flight data recorders and recovery beacons designed to float indefinitely. They are necessarily more complex than fixed units, and more expensive also.

There was a push in the US about 4-5 years ago to require air carriers to install similar technology, but I don't believe anything came of it. The airline industry opposed the move, ostensibly due to safety concerns - in the event that the ejector went off accidentally, someone on the ground might be hit by the falling recorder. It's likely the added cost was a factor for them also.

Personally, I don't think you could justify the expense and risk associated with retrofitting the existing fleet. Oceanic crashes are relatively rare, and crashes where the CVR/FDRs have been unrecoverable are even rarer still.

If you are interested in some further reading - http://www.ntsb.gov/events//symp_rec/proceedings/authors/austin.htm

 

[Jack_McHammocklashing]

I have no idea about aircraft black boxes etc or indeed anything about aircraft in general but it struck me with the question!what is the reason why black boxes are not fitted with a flotation device that triggers on water contact to bring it to the surface?
There must be a good reason but I'd like to know,if weight is a problem then a small marker bouy could be fitted to eject on impact.
Top minds have an answer why not but I'd like to know the reason.
Problem is now the wife is demanding a coach trip abroad to Spain and won't fly.How gross is that?a coach trip all that way.
Hope they get it sorted soon

The black box, would find it difficult to remove itself from within the fuselage, make its way fwrd, and exit the plane

As for a coach trip abroad, I went years ago with a major company, a convoy of four coaches
One drove up and down the promenade at Dover for four hours whilst a mobile mechanic tried to fix the gears it could either start from standing and stay in first three gears, or only have the top gears
Eventually it was left with just the top gears, so could not move off
another coach pushed it off the ferry and when at speed into gear and had to stay there all the way to ITALY, Could not stop for comfort breaks

Another of the group drove into a filling station in Italy to top up, the coach was the high line type the filling station was for cars, so he removed the top deck on entry and many people hurt

Our coach did not know the give way rules on the Italian motorway, and ended up with a van wedged in the side

The other coach made it all the way without any bother but managed to roll itself on the French motorway at 0400 going like made for the 0600 ferry
Not bad for four coaches on a two week holiday
The company now long gone was Redcrest holidays

I still do coach holidays, just back off one recently, and even more recently just back of a cruise, and flew to Venice via amsterdam and Edinburgh
If your times up it is up, even if you walk (THOUGH I do not wish to be on Billy Smith the pilots flight when his time is up

Jack McH

 

[WreckerL]

I have no idea about aircraft black boxes etc or indeed anything about aircraft in general but it struck me with the question!what is the reason why black boxes are not fitted with a flotation device that triggers on water contact to bring it to the surface?
There must be a good reason but I'd like to know,if weight is a problem then a small marker bouy could be fitted to eject on impact.
Top minds have an answer why not but I'd like to know the reason.
Problem is now the wife is demanding a coach trip abroad to Spain and won't fly.How gross is that?a coach trip all that way.
Hope they get it sorted soon

Simple, you fly, she goes by coach. Should give you a couple of days of peace and quiet in the bar before she fronts up. Or you could spin her dits about the Herald of Free Enterprise or the last Chunnel fire.

 

[sussex2]

I have no idea about aircraft black boxes etc or indeed anything about aircraft in general but it struck me with the question!what is the reason why black boxes are not fitted with a flotation device that triggers on water contact to bring it to the surface?
There must be a good reason but I'd like to know,if weight is a problem then a small marker bouy could be fitted to eject on impact.
Top minds have an answer why not but I'd like to know the reason.
Problem is now the wife is demanding a coach trip abroad to Spain and won't fly.How gross is that?a coach trip all that way.
Hope they get it sorted soon

Weight and complication probably, plus these boxes are pretty fixed to a strong part of the aircraft in order to survive, most of the time.
Trust me that flying to Spain is immeasurably safer than going by road. Despite a 50 percent decrease in road deaths in France and Spain in recent years, the caualty rates are much higher than in the UK. The reason there is a lower speed limit during rain on French motorways is because a couple of coach loads of children were fried some years back - may want to tell the missus that 8O
You are safer in any aircraft than sat, stood, in your own home.

 

[Maxi_77]

I have no idea about aircraft black boxes etc or indeed anything about aircraft in general but it struck me with the question!what is the reason why black boxes are not fitted with a flotation device that triggers on water contact to bring it to the surface?
There must be a good reason but I'd like to know,if weight is a problem then a small marker bouy could be fitted to eject on impact.
Top minds have an answer why not but I'd like to know the reason.
Problem is now the wife is demanding a coach trip abroad to Spain and won't fly.How gross is that?a coach trip all that way.
Hope they get it sorted soon

Weight and complication probably, plus these boxes are pretty fixed to a strong part of the aircraft in order to survive, most of the time.
Trust me that flying to Spain is immeasurably safer than going by road. Despite a 50 percent decrease in road deaths in France and Spain in recent years, the caualty rates are much higher than in the UK. The reason there is a lower speed limit during rain on French motorways is because a couple of coach loads of children were fried some years back - may want to tell the missus that 8O
You are safer in any aircraft than sat, stood, in your own home.

Most of the recorders are reasonably small so if one could come up with a crash survivable floatation system it could work, but by crash surviveable we are talking about 500g for 5 milliseconds, even finding a test machine is not easy. The reality is most crashes take place over land so the pressure for deep ocean recovery is not that presing.

The points you raise on safety are important but at the same time do represent tha acceptability of risk, we accept risks we know well, like crossing the road, driving a car etc. Flying is lees within our control and we understand it less so we demand higher levels of safety, and when we look at making electricy we are very happy for miners to go underground a nd die from dust realated diseases for us but woe betide any one leaking a minor ammount of nuclear waste from a power station

 

[seafarer1939]

thanks for the input,never thought about the crashes mostly over land,makes sense I suppose.I thought when an aircraft hit the sea it would break apart violently,or in the air,I reckoned it wouldn't take much to attach a box that floated them up but there's nothing more stupid than someone like me with no knowledge of a thing trying to be clever!
Got an answer though.thanks

 

[question]

in these cases who is paying for the search effort? Airline (or more likely their insurers)? Nation states with the most passengers...?

how does it work

 

[Smoggie]

They went around my local with a cap in hand asking for spare change. I think it was them anyway.