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AIB waiting time

Yeah it's a good discussion. At least you're polite and mannerly unlike that other man/woman

I thank you for that. I'm not normally called polite!! Some users think I'm damn rude but simply confuse a different opinion as argumentative. Not so. It's usually mums I fall out with!!! They want the best for their son/daughter and I can't understand why it's mum fighting little Jonny's battle.

Thank you for the chat, I have a better understanding of the frustrations of the waiting. Good luck and I do hope it eventually works out for you.
 
I thank you for that. I'm not normally called polite!! Some users think I'm damn rude but simply confuse a different opinion as argumentative. Not so. It's usually mums I fall out with!!! They want the best for their son/daughter and I can't understand why it's mum fighting little Jonny's battle.

Thank you for the chat, I have a better understanding of the frustrations of the waiting. Good luck and I do hope it eventually works out for you.

The world would be a much better place if people remembered you can disagree with someone and still remain civil and not take it personally.
 
I've got plenty of Ratings who've joined in well under a year.

Those who waited are those applying for small branches or had medical issues.

I get that not everyone has a long wait and this is a good thing. But loads do have a stupidly long wait which is both bad for the individual being stuck in limbo and bad for the navy as the quality and quantity of their applicant drops. It just seems strange to me to have a situation where some roles are massively oversubscribed and hence the long waits and some are short of manpower. There is an obvious solution there as I've outlined above

In any case initially I was referring to an officer applicant who has been waiting for over 2 years since his initial application. There's no reason why the navy can't put on more boards. Unless they're really that strapped for cash? I was told a 7 month wait (roughly) for the AIB on top of all the medical and the inevitable delays which I don't neccessarily blame the navy for. I know how negligence works and I get why the navy is ultra cautious. More boards would help individuals and improve the quality of officer as the board has far more applicants to choose from. I do get why there's some delays. I know some delays are inevitable with how training works. I do get that. But the delay for officer applications in particular is ridiculous
 
You want more applicants to apply for the same spaces? Because? I’ll be honest, with the very odd exception* I’ve never had a problem with the quality of individual who reaches the frontline (or those I’ve met over the years at BRNC). The problem comes in getting people to accept that spending years at sea, living a peculiar lifestyle, is worth it.

Those branches that have shortfalls tend to have them due to barriers to entry (mainly medical prerequisites, hand-eye co-ordination, STEM or Medical Degree). Those branches that are well subscribed (RM and Logistics) have lower barriers to entry.

I’m not sure how you get someone who doesn’t make the grade for Logs suddenly becomes a competitive Weapon Engineer applicant.

*And they were very “odd”...
 
You want more applicants to apply for the same spaces? Because? I’ll be honest, with the very odd exception* I’ve never had a problem with the quality of individual who reaches the frontline (or those I’ve met over the years at BRNC). The problem comes in getting people to accept that spending years at sea, living a peculiar lifestyle, is worth it.

Those branches that have shortfalls tend to have them due to barriers to entry (mainly medical prerequisites, hand-eye co-ordination, STEM or Medical Degree). Those branches that are well subscribed (RM and Logistics) have lower barriers to entry.

I’m not sure how you get someone who doesn’t make the grade for Logs suddenly becomes a competitive Weapon Engineer applicant.

*And they were very “odd”...

Of course you want more applicants. You want more applicants for every role. More applicants means better quality actually getting in. Is this contested?

Fair enough for the medical branches **** knows how you'd convince more people with medical degrees to join the navy. More money obviously but that's not really the navys fault it's given a smaller budget than required

However there are loads of people with engineering degrees. And loads of them would be interested in joining the navy. And it shouldn't be particular hard to convince a few more of them to apply. You'd only need a couple of hundred extra officer applications in shortage roles a year to fix the manpower issues correct? That's hardly an impossible task. One way of doing this might be to not put them through years of waiting to get their chance at the AIB for example. As I said I know first hand the wait to get in turning off several people

And none of what you've said has really answered my initial point of wondering how a 2 year + wait to get in as an officer can possibly be justified
 
I’ve had to wait almost two years for a start date and it hasn’t put me off, I appreciate we all have different views and opinions.

But surely the people who can’t make the best of it and are not willing to wait 1-2 years to get a place for what would potentially be a very fulfilling 20-30 year career just aren’t ready or don’t truly want to be part of the Navy.

Instead they would rather pick out the potential flaws in the recruitment process rather than do what I have done and just accept it is what it is you either want it or you don’t.
 
And none of what you've said has really answered my initial point of wondering how a 2 year + wait to get in as an officer can possibly be justified

What it comes down to, in my opinion, is this:

We're fixed in the number of people we can train a year. We have plenty of applicants and even have enough people joining. What we're lacking is people staying in the RN. We simply cannot keep up the training to match the outflow


When it comes to recruitment, it needs more people to facilitate it. I don't know how many people work at the AIB, but let's say 15 or so. That's 15 people that are taken out of their primary roles to go and do that job. To add more locations you'd need to take another 15 or so for each one which only adds to the operational manpower burden, people getting frustrated that they're doing more back to back deployments and then leaving, further compounding the issue.

The same with a training establishment. The more recruits you have, the more infrastructure you need and the more staff and resources. Military training staff, medical staff, civilian support staff, money.

Civilian companies are also more likely to bring people in, trained, and ready to work within a couple of months. An AET, for example, takes around 15 months to become fully qualified and even then you can't call them experienced.

We also have people consistently leaving due to either retiring or PVR. The numbers, from what I understand, are set about a year in advance. If, for example, the personnel outflow for a branch doubles on what is expected then that branch will have to be prioritised. It's not a case of "we've had someone leave, recruit their replacement".
 
There aren’t enough STEM graduates in the UK - the RN is not alone in a shortfall in applicants. Given that even 20 years ago quite a few of them were being grabbed by the financial industry (that can pay silly money) or into bleeding edge tech firms, I can’t imagine it’s much different.

200 Officer “applicants” - what do you mean by this? 200 extra at AIB, 200 to medical (noting some fail), 200 to sift or 200 making an expression of interest via the website? ARRSE has some fairly good numbers on what that actually means, but 200 to AIB = c20,000 looking at the website (IIRC).

Given that the people we have in Service are good enough, why would we waste time and money in actively attracting too many people? There is a fine line of diminishing returns.

Finally, I’m not sure how true it is we’re falling short in recruiting in the main. I’ll check when I’m back at work, but everything I know relates to retention - in particular at the 4-6 year point.
 
Finally, I’m not sure how true it is we’re falling short in recruiting in the main. I’ll check when I’m back at work, but everything I know relates to retention - in particular at the 4-6 year point.

I'm not sure we're too far short of what we require. We're averaging a 5-6% deficit in the total trained strength across all ranks and rates, significantly lower than the army and the RAF.
 
There aren’t enough STEM graduates in the UK - the RN is not alone in a shortfall in applicants. Given that even 20 years ago quite a few of them were being grabbed by the financial industry (that can pay silly money) or into bleeding edge tech firms, I can’t imagine it’s much different.

200 Officer “applicants” - what do you mean by this? 200 extra at AIB, 200 to medical (noting some fail), 200 to sift or 200 making an expression of interest via the website? ARRSE has some fairly good numbers on what that actually means, but 200 to AIB = c20,000 looking at the website (IIRC).

Given that the people we have in Service are good enough, why would we waste time and money in actively attracting too many people? There is a fine line of diminishing returns.

Finally, I’m not sure how true it is we’re falling short in recruiting in the main. I’ll check when I’m back at work, but everything I know relates to retention - in particular at the 4-6 year point.

But a lack of retention means there is a crisis coming especially if training can't keep up. Either the navy needs to fix it's retention crisis or increase its training abilities (which would coincidentally get rid of a lot of the waiting times)

And it just seems a very pessimistic attitude to say that the current applicants are "good enough". You should be trying to get the best of the best while also fixing the retention issues.

Either way between the retention issues and the lack of training ability the navy is headed toward a crisis. And it needs to fix it. It won't fix itself. It'll only get worse
 
But a lack of retention means there is a crisis coming especially if training can't keep up. Either the navy needs to fix it's retention crisis or increase its training abilities (which would coincidentally get rid of a lot of the waiting times).

And it just seems a very pessimistic attitude to say that the current applicants are "good enough". You should be trying to get the best of the best while also fixing the retention issues.

Either way between the retention issues and the lack of training ability the navy is headed toward a crisis. And it needs to fix it. It won't fix itself. It'll only get worse


No, we're mostly in a good place with it these days. With COVID and the uncertainty of the job market, I'd fully expect voluntary outflow to see a reduction in the near future. The retention issue comes from more money on the outside and the ability to see your family more often. That's something that's being worked on as well.

The RN has plenty of people looking at these issues. I don't really see why a 2 year waiting time is that much of an issue, honestly.
 
What it comes down to, in my opinion, is this:

We're fixed in the number of people we can train a year. We have plenty of applicants and even have enough people joining. What we're lacking is people staying in the RN. We simply cannot keep up the training to match the outflow


When it comes to recruitment, it needs more people to facilitate it. I don't know how many people work at the AIB, but let's say 15 or so. That's 15 people that are taken out of their primary roles to go and do that job. To add more locations you'd need to take another 15 or so for each one which only adds to the operational manpower burden, people getting frustrated that they're doing more back to back deployments and then leaving, further compounding the issue.

The same with a training establishment. The more recruits you have, the more infrastructure you need and the more staff and resources. Military training staff, medical staff, civilian support staff, money.

Civilian companies are also more likely to bring people in, trained, and ready to work within a couple of months. An AET, for example, takes around 15 months to become fully qualified and even then you can't call them experienced.

We also have people consistently leaving due to either retiring or PVR. The numbers, from what I understand, are set about a year in advance. If, for example, the personnel outflow for a branch doubles on what is expected then that branch will have to be prioritised. It's not a case of "we've had someone leave, recruit their replacement".

I get that it's a money issue and that largely isn't the navys fault. But surely the quality of your officers would be near the top of your list of concerns? If not the top concern? Would having another board location or doubling the current number of boards really be that expensive in the grand scheme?

I dunno, maybe it is impossible to reduce waiting times below 2 years for officer applicants due to budgetary constraints. But surely to God there's a way to get it below 2 years

And hopefully Covid will perversely enough help with recruitment although as we've established recruit numbers aren't neccessarily a problem for the navy

And do you genuinely not see the issue with a 2 year wait time? Really? Would you be fine waiting 2 years for any other job? You'd be ok with that?
 
Recruiting doesn't help the retention - if everyone still buggers off at the 4 year point, there's not a lot of point stuffing yet more in.

The structural requirements of the RN limits the number of people we want and need at any given point. I only have so many beds on my ship, so there's no point in getting people in to simply wait shoreside. Trust me, the very worst thing that can happen is to go through all your training, and then it all come to a shuddering halt for 12 months whilst you wait for a bed at sea.
 
Recruiting doesn't help the retention - if everyone still buggers off at the 4 year point, there's not a lot of point stuffing yet more in.

The structural requirements of the RN limits the number of people we want and need at any given point. I only have so many beds on my ship, so there's no point in getting people in to simply wait shoreside. Trust me, the very worst thing that can happen is to go through all your training, and then it all come to a shuddering halt for 12 months whilst you wait for a bed at sea.

I get that but my initial point was about the wait times for the AIB. Which I still maintain is ridiculously long
 

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