Afghan Casualties (Discussion not condolences).

[Scouse_Scribes]

I'm completely fukcing numb, I was upset today watching the cortege drive through Wootton Bassett, only to find at 10 o'clock that we have lost 8 lads today.

Stand Easy boys, RIP, condolences to all the families and comrades of those who have died today

You will not be forgotten

 

[Sentenashi]

Re: Afghan Casualties

RIP

 

[Montigny_La_Palisse]

Re: Afghan Casualties

Fcuks sake.

8 die in 24hrs



Rip lads, stand down.

 

[slim]

Re: Afghan Casualties

There comes a point when enough is enough. Afghanistan is not an ex British colony or a British protectorate. Too many lives are being sacrificed in a lost cause. Time to pull out, protect our borders and stop the drug traffickers.
As for the Afghan population, sorry as far as I am concerned it is a problem for the Muslim countries to solve.
R.I.P. lads my wish is that no more of your comrades join you.

 

[Jerry_Hatrick]

Re: Afghan Casualties

Once again, the good people of Wootton Bassett bring a tear to the eye,
and do us proud.

Jerry

 

[wet_blobby]

Re: Afghan Casualties

RIP lads,

Sorry to say this and go against the general feeling but don't pull out. I ask the government to commit the troops and equipment needed to do the job properly. you cannot be non committal and half arsed in a war fighting situation. Get in, use a fcuking big stick and get out.

Black day indeed, there will be more.

 

[finknottle]

Re: Afghan Casualties

More tragic losses my sincere condolences to family and friends.


Article by Col Tim Collins in todays Mirror I for one think he puts it well:


By Col Tim Collins 11/07/2009

Our losses this week serve to remind the British public we are at war.

We have suffered high losses among our young servicemen. Precious lives were sacrificed to keep us safe.

If we lose this struggle then we can expect to pay a higher price in terms of civilian casualties here in the UK - and everywhere else in Europe and the free world for that matter.

The British Army are engaged in a battle in the very crucible of a death cult that seeks to drag civilisation backwards to the dark ages.

The people of Afghanistan have been the victims, abused and degraded by the Taliban for years. (The Taliban are not soldiers, they are criminals).

It is hard for the ordinary people of Helmand to support the Allies by day when troops are pulled back at night and they have to answer to the subversives who prey on them for influence and money and who press gang their sons and steal their daughters and wives for entertainment.

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The Taliban try to convince the terrified civilians that the Coalition only bring air raids and blundered attacks on weddings and funerals.

Under new Commander General Stan McChrystal, the emphasis is on protecting the people of Afghanistan.

That means less bombing and more boots on the ground. It is now about seizing ground and holding it so that institutions can flourish. That means fighting the Taliban up close. They are committed fighters. They will make a stand and will cause casualties.

But our boys are better. We are beating them at a rate that is unsustainable. They know it too.

We must not be swayed by our own deplorable casualties. We must not let up. Brigadier Tim Radford and his men in Helmand are our generation's "Few". Let's back them to the hilt.

 

[slim]

Re: Afghan Casualties

Finknottle
You seem to be easily seduced by fine words.
If we spent an equivalent amount of money on securing our borders, policing the drug routes and internal security we would achieve a better result without the tragic loss of young lives.
Too many are using the scare tactics of if we do not defeat the Taliban we will suffer civilian casualties in the UK.
Destroy the poppy fields from the air and deny the Taliban the vast profits made from drugs.
Offer the farmers alternative crops, if they continue to grow poppies we should continue to destroy the fields.
A few years of working for no production would soon teach them what should be grown
Satellite surveillance should be able to identify these fields.

You have read the occifers words, now see it from a Squaddies point :

'All we care about is getting our mates out alive'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1198958/All-care-getting-mates-alive.html

Finally
How many MPs have sons/ daughters on the front line?

 

[PartTimer]

Re: Afghan Casualties

Finknottle
You seem to be easily seduced by fine words.
If we spent an equivalent amount of money on securing our borders, policing the drug routes and internal security we would achieve a better result without the tragic loss of young lives.
Too many are using the scare tactics of if we do not defeat the Taliban we will suffer civilian casualties in the UK.
Destroy the poppy fields from the air and deny the Taliban the vast profits made from drugs.
Offer the farmers alternative crops, if they continue to grow poppies we should continue to destroy the fields.
A few years of working for no production would soon teach them what should be grown
Satellite surveillance should be able to identify these fields.

You have read the occifers words, now see it from a Squaddies point :

'All we care about is getting our mates out alive'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1198958/All-care-getting-mates-alive.html

Finally
How many MPs have sons/ daughters on the front line?

Actually to be fair, a few MP's themselves have served in sandy places, being members of the TA, RNR etc.

Just because the author of the article is an Officer doesn't mean he hasn't got a valid argument to make. Personally I believe we are making a difference out there (and tying up a lot of fanatics that would otherwise be looking at carrying the battle home to us here in the UK). At the moment we are prodding the hornets nest and going into their strongholds, benefiting from the extra boots on the ground that the US has provided and we have been unable to. If the fight is to be won this has to be done. I only hope we are able to hold the ground afterwards with what I consider to be insufficient manpower.

As an aside, the Poppy Eradication Force is having a lot of success in Helmand.

 

[slim]

Re: Afghan Casualties

Unfortunately Parttimer we do not have sufficient manpower or funds to support an operation of this kind.
Great Britain is no longer Great, we do not have the resources to call on that we once did. Other NATO countries as usual are supplying lip service and not manpower.
Afghanistan is our Vietnam (a conflict which G.B. very sensibly kept out of) in the Vietnam era though our leaders were not Americas bum boys.
An academic on the television likened our attempts in Afghanistan to Grass cutting, you cut it then leave it and it regrows. Unfortunately I have to agree with him.
The reason for reservists was to protect the UK in times of attack, not to send them to an unwinnable conflict.

 

[scouse]

Re: Afghan Casualties

I dont usually like to post, on these type of topics, it is so upsetting. RIP to those who have lost their lives serving our nation, PS IMHO we should not be their. :salute: :salute: Afghanistan has changed names over the 23 centuries since, but it's still a land-locked knot of mountains prone to droughts, blizzards, and floods. It was Alexander's toughest challenge, and he never subdued its citizens completely. The British in the 1800s and the Soviets in the 1900s met similar fates.

 

[NotmeChief]

Re: Afghan Casualties

It was Alexander's toughest challenge, and he never subdued its citizens completely.

But it's not the citizens that this is all about, it is about Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
Lets not forget the reason action started. 3,000 killed in the US and then reinforced by 54 in the London bombings.

To withdraw would be foolish. There is no way the UK could protect or lock down it's border to such acts happening again.

 

[slim]

Re: Afghan Casualties

It was Alexander's toughest challenge, and he never subdued its citizens completely.

But it's not the citizens that this is all about, it is about Al Qaeda and the Taliban.
Lets not forget the reason action started. 3,000 killed in the US and then reinforced by 54 in the London bombings.

To withdraw would be foolish. There is no way the UK could protect or lock down it's border to such acts happening again.

Owing to the lax way that the government has dealt with immigration and asylum seekers the perpetrators of acts such as 9/11 and the London bombings are already here and ready to act. Don't forget the London bombers were home grown, so that reason simply does not hold water.
Just more government brain washing.
Use the troops to lock down our borders and repatriate those here illegally.

 

[NZ_Bootneck]

Re: Afghan Casualties

I'm afraid that despite loses such as this the current UK Gov and even it's successor will not withdraw carte blanche from the Afghanistan theatre and nor IMO should they.
This region will be the area where UK PLC can have some influence on extremism, not iust by the use of military force, but also through co-operation and 'diplomacy' with locals.
It may go against the grain to negoiate truces with those who HMG wouldn't normally cross the road to pish on, but we went into the place with an (All be it misguided...) mission to capture/remove a threat to the West and remove a 'Government' that supported/harboured that threat and so it behoves us to, at least, ensure that any elected civil Government is capable of maintaing some sembalance of authority.
Until the Afghan's own forces can maintain Internal Security without assistance from the UK and USA can those Nations withdraw without further discrediting their reputations as the homes of modern democracy?


PS I'm still waiting for anyone to supply me with a valid reason why the UK got involved in The War Against Terror in the first place. "Tony Blair come on down!!"

 

[finknottle]

Re: Afghan Casualties

Finknottle
You seem to be easily seduced by fine words.
If we spent an equivalent amount of money on securing our borders, policing the drug routes and internal security we would achieve a better result without the tragic loss of young lives.
Too many are using the scare tactics of if we do not defeat the Taliban we will suffer civilian casualties in the UK.
Destroy the poppy fields from the air and deny the Taliban the vast profits made from drugs.
Offer the farmers alternative crops, if they continue to grow poppies we should continue to destroy the fields.
A few years of working for no production would soon teach them what should be grown
Satellite surveillance should be able to identify these fields.

You have read the occifers words, now see it from a Squaddies point :

'All we care about is getting our mates out alive'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1198958/All-care-getting-mates-alive.html

Finally
How many MPs have sons/ daughters on the front line?

Our Son has done three tours in Afghanistan with 3Cdo Brigade and at the very sharp end of the fighting so I have the 'Squaddies' as you choose to call them point of view first hand.

As for being seduced by fine words I think not.

 

[slim]

Re: Afghan Casualties

Finks
I hope your son and all the others return home safely.
For interest what is his opinion of fighting in Afghanistan?
Does he believe that the war is winnable?

 

[wave_dodger]

Re: Afghan Casualties

If we spent an equivalent amount of money on securing our borders, policing the drug routes and internal security we would achieve a better result without the tragic loss of young lives.

Really, just like the US have with Mexico?

Too many are using the scare tactics of if we do not defeat the Taliban we will suffer civilian casualties in the UK.

How do you know we won't, we already know the madrassas in NW Pakistan and the Afghan border spawn and train vast numbers of militant muslims who are committed to destroying the west through violent means, what happened in Mumbai and Stockwell ring a bell?

Destroy the poppy fields from the air and deny the Taliban the vast profits made from drugs.

And deny the average subsistence farmer a living and he turns to what
? Picking up an AK47 for $5 to have a crack at ISAF soldiers!

Offer the farmers alternative crops, if they continue to grow poppies we should continue to destroy the fields.

That IS what we're doing!

A few years of working for no production would soon teach them what should be grown

Not sure what you meant by this?

Satellite surveillance should be able to identify these fields.

Easily, but they are all over the chuffin place

You have read the occifers words, now see it from a Squaddies point :

This just demonstrates your prejudice and lack of belief in what Officers are.

Finally How many MPs have sons/ daughters on the front line?

Which means exactly what?

Anyway, to pull out now would be foolish. Far better to prepare and equip our people to do the job properly, hopefully not at the risk of having a military equipment to fight "a" war in 25 years time. I cannot disagree that we need more boots on the ground, better C-IED and more rotary wing assets.

As for is it "winnable", I don't think its a straight "kill them all" problem. The issue is about degrading the Taliban enough such that the tier2/3 fighters get throughly disenchanted with the tier 1 leadership and decide a peaceful way of life is better. To do that we need to continue taking them on and in parallel improve their lives and offer an alternative which is where CIMIC comes in. Its a political and civil exercise as much as a straight military evolution.

There is no easy solution but that doesn't mean to say we shouldn't be trying.

 

[PartTimer]

Re: Afghan Casualties

Unfortunately Parttimer we do not have sufficient manpower or funds to support an operation of this kind.
Great Britain is no longer Great, we do not have the resources to call on that we once did. Other NATO countries as usual are supplying lip service and not manpower.
Afghanistan is our Vietnam (a conflict which G.B. very sensibly kept out of) in the Vietnam era though our leaders were not Americas bum boys.
An academic on the television likened our attempts in Afghanistan to Grass cutting, you cut it then leave it and it regrows. Unfortunately I have to agree with him.
The reason for reservists was to protect the UK in times of attack, not to send them to an unwinnable conflict.

Some may be - others are making a huge sacrifice. The Canadians are losing many more than we are as a percentage of their forces and population (over 120). The Danes lost 5 in one month when I was there (making 24 in total) - again a large number for a small nation.

Of the other NATO nations (and these figures are a few days out of date)...

721 Americans
3 Czech
19 Dutch
4 Estonians
26 French
30 Germans
2 Hungarians
13 Italians
3 Latvians
1 Lithuanian
4 Norwegians
9 Poles
2 Portuguese
11 Romanians
25 Spaniards

And that's quite apart from the Aussies, Swedes, Finns, South Koreans, etc that have been killed.

RIP to them all.

 

[NotmeChief]

Re: Afghan Casualties

If we spent an equivalent amount of money on securing our borders, policing the drug routes and internal security we would achieve a better result without the tragic loss of young lives.

That's a bit of an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude. Witdraw and leave the rest of the world to get on with it.

If we, and all the nations fighting this war, were to do that, we would all be giving in to terrorism and allowing them carte blanc freedom to take what they wanted and destroy who they wanted anywhere in the world.
Not to mention that we would all be restricted to going to Cornwall for our holidays and living in fear of travelling outside

 

[Bergen]

Re: Afghan Casualties

The British are dying in Afghanistan because The Bliar subborned British interests to the interests of the United States and it's failed foreign policies.

In the mid-80's Zbigniew Brzezinski saw an advantage in bleeding the Soviets in Afghanistan. As he put it 'The USA will make this Russia's Vietnam". The Wily Muj were noble freedom fighters and Muslim Patriots like Usama bin Laden were actively funded and armed by the CIA. Within 3 years Stinger MANPADS had obliterated the Soviet air-power advantage and in 1989 the last Soviet troops had left the Salang.

The Russian's were beaten and against any common sense the Septics stopped all civil aid to Afghanistan and left a war-torn failed state to fester.

After many explicit warnings from Al Qaida - 9/11 happened; carried out almost entirely by Saudi Arabian nationals and funded by Saudi jihadists. The response by the USA was swift, brutal and entirely justified, but once again the West managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

No civil aid on any significant scale, the Taleb left to re-constitute in the Tribal Border Areas, the Pakistani's active behind the scenes in support of them.

Then to cap it off, in 2003 the Brits set off on the biggest foreign policy blunder since the Crimea by illegally invading Iraq [a country that not only had nothing to do with 9/11 but was actively anti-Al Qaida] in defiance of the UN and after secret accords had been reached between The Bliar and Bush.

The West was now completely off-balance fighting a war of choice in Iraq and ignoring the real problem of Afghanistan. The war in Iraq, the continued abuse of the Palestinians, the torture of Muslims were all great recruiting tools for the fundamentalists.

Iraq has now effectively been abandoned, the Brits left with their tails between their legs and the Septics are spinning the entire war as a success leading to democracy. Utter nonsense. Violence in Iraq will increase and the country will slide into fundamentalism and tribalism.

Meanwhile the window of opportunity in Afghanistan has been missed and US tactics have alienated even the moderate Afghans. Karzai is in effect Mayor of Kabul [and not even all of that fair city].

We should all pray that the Taleban don't secure modern MANPADS because if they get their hands on Iglas or the Iranian equivalent then all bets are off.

Bless our soldiers - the country has not served them well.

RM