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A Naval Base"Review", a Euphemism for Closure

slim

War Hero
Many years ago while working for BAe as a field engineer I installed Phalanx on the Birmingham during the refit. The Brum finished its refit and sailed for Pompey where all the cockups made during refit were corrected. If the standard of work at rosyth now is the same as it was when Brum refitted there is no question which yard should close
 
FlagWagger said:
Union - a joining of equals.

Where is the equality in the current set-up? The UK is goverened by a Scots dominated Cabinet - I have no problem with this; English policy is set by a Scottish dominated parliament by MPs who cannot themselves affect their own constituencies - I have a problem with this.

I do not see how 60 odd Scottish MPs (and some of them are pretty odd) can dominate some 600 odd (see previous comment) English MPs but if they are mannaging to do that it perhaps makes up for some 300 years of English MPs controlling what happened in Scotland.

FlagWagger said:
NHS - the inequality in funding to Scotland results in drugs/treatments being available North of the Border, but not in England. Is this a fair union?.

If we choos to spend the portion of our money which you graciously give back to us differently that's our choice.

FlagWagger said:
Education - Scottish students pay no top-up fees, unlike English students; why? English tax-payers are once again providing a subsidy. .

No our student don't pay fees, just extra taxes, look up Graduate endowment. Top up fees go straight from the student to the university so in fact as we don't have them in Scotland our universities get less money than English ones. Try getting your facts right.

FlagWagger said:
As a Navy brat I spent many years of my childhood in Scotland and was very happy there. Indeed, since my formative years were spent in Scotland amongst Scottish people I used to regard myself as part Scottish (by influence if not by pedigree). Some of my speech patterns contain Scottish words and phrases, yet since devolution, I've visited Scotland several times and felt threatened once my accent had been heard - an instant judgement, he speaks like an Englishman therefore he must be hated. In my experience the Scots today are racist (especially towards the English) and xenophobic; your rants just reinforce this impression.

I think I'll live with my childhood memories and forego the pleasure of visiting Scotland again - yes, there's the scenery, the culture, the food (not deep fried Mars bars!) that I'll miss, but by God I won't miss the insults, the hostility, the threatening atmosphere or the hatred just because I have an English accent.

In reality if you did venture North of the border you would probably get a warm welcome as long as you dont act like a whinging prat. Many English live here and have no intenntions of going home. The hostility is a press created nonsense, manyof those I work with have moved here from England and would not work anywhere else. They dont complain about hostility etc. If you believe the tabloid rubbish them that's your choice, but it will also be your loss.

Best wishes

Peter
 
The Barnett Formula does not pay out disproportionately to Scotland as is popularly believed! When you take into consideration Scotland's contributions to the Treasury she only receives slightly more per capita than England, though direct comparisons appear to suggest otherwise.
 

FlagWagger

GCM
Book Reviewer
Maxi_77 said:
I do not see how 60 odd Scottish MPs (and some of them are pretty odd) can dominate some 600 odd (see previous comment) English MPs but if they are mannaging to do that it perhaps makes up for some 300 years of English MPs controlling what happened in Scotland.

So two wrongs make a right? I don't think so.

If you look at the vote from the last General Election, there were 59 Scottish seats at Westminster of which Labour won 40. Ther have been a number of bills affecting only England where Labour's majority has been significantly less than 40 and which have have relied on the votes of MPs representing Scottish constituencies to pass.

Maxi_77 said:
If we choos to spend the portion of our money which you graciously give back to us differently that's our choice.

Agreed - its the unwillingness of the Scots to consider changing the Barnett formula that's at issue here, not how you choose to spend your money.

Maxi_77 said:
In reality if you did venture North of the border you would probably get a warm welcome as long as you dont act like a whinging prat.

I did, I didn't and I didn't in order! I have been back North several times and have noticed a distinct cooling in relations between the English and the Scots. I'm not basing my comments on the Daily Mail (I don't read it for a start), I'm actually using my own personal experience.
 

come_the_day

Lantern Swinger
I worked in Rosyth, albeit for only a short time and, apart from the obvious communication problems when talking to Fifers, was always treated with warmth and friendliness by all. Mel Gibson's bullsh1t has done little for anyone other than his own bank manager, but the Scots are well aware that Wallace was nothing like the figure portrayed, although the Monument is a pretty spectacular addition to the scenery near Stirling.

A lot of what is peddled as fact in highland lore, like the "Glencoe Massacre" is not based on much fact, but undeniably occurred and the Highland Clearances were iniquitous, but that was all a long time ago. My first experiences of Scotland, such as the Muscular Arms in Glasgow, were a bit odd, but very enjoyable and they really looked after our little ship's company when we were in Govan for a couple of months.

One thing's for sure, the discussions on this thread will have no effect whatsoever on which, if any, base closes, because the great British public doesn't give a sh1t for the history and support of the RN, or any other part of defence for that matter. The tinkerers in Whitehall (including the Joint Chiefs) will get their gongs for saving a few million here and there, while presiding over the further reduction of the UK Armed Forces to a shadow. But we shouldn't despair, this will enable the Civil Service to grow and allow Bliar and co to generate more advisers jobs to soak up the savings.
 

whitbylad

Newbie
On a slightly different tack, I considered joining the MOD Police on leaving the RAF (next year if I get redundancy) until I realised that I could be committing myself to a career spent on the wet, sorry, West Coast of Scotland with its rain and shorter days (on the plus side, the beer is good). If one of the South Coast bases shuts, I wonder how many of our fine sailors and families will choose to jump ship and stay down South.

Could we not get our subs serviced in America?

Whitby has a nice jetty.
 
whitbylad said:
Could we not get our subs serviced in America?

Whitby has a nice jetty.



The American option was a very close run thing --------------the access to Guzz and its facilities for big vessels is becoming a talked about item.
 
FlagWagger said:
Maxi_77 said:
I do not see how 60 odd Scottish MPs (and some of them are pretty odd) can dominate some 600 odd (see previous comment) English MPs but if they are mannaging to do that it perhaps makes up for some 300 years of English MPs controlling what happened in Scotland.

So two wrongs make a right? I don't think so.

If you look at the vote from the last General Election, there were 59 Scottish seats at Westminster of which Labour won 40. Ther have been a number of bills affecting only England where Labour's majority has been significantly less than 40 and which have have relied on the votes of MPs representing Scottish constituencies to pass.

If the 600 odd English MPs wanted to change this they could, but they don't, why? As the law stands at the moment any UK MP can vote on any motion in the UK parliament. If the majority of English MPs don't want to change this for England and Wales only legislation perhaps you should complain to them not us as there is quite bluntly b*gger all we can do about it.

Maxi_77 said:
If we choos to spend the portion of our money which you graciously give back to us differently that's our choice.
FlagWagger said:
Agreed - its the unwillingness of the Scots to consider changing the Barnett formula that's at issue here, not how you choose to spend your money.

Once again 60 MPs cannot tell 600 what to do, if those 600 wanted it changed they could. If one considers Maggies strong desire to only spend what she really had to and considering under her rule the Tories gave up trying to win votes North fo the border why did she not stop the Barnet formula. Equally if we were such a finacial millstone why did she not ditch us completely.

Maxi_77 said:
In reality if you did venture North of the border you would probably get a warm welcome as long as you dont act like a whinging prat.

FlagWagger said:
I did, I didn't and I didn't in order! I have been back North several times and have noticed a distinct cooling in relations between the English and the Scots. I'm not basing my comments on the Daily Mail (I don't read it for a start), I'm actually using my own personal experience.


One can only speculate why your reception is not as good as the many who have moved here and stayed and have no intetion of moving home. This includes many of those I work with, my wifes family, my sister boyfriend, many I sail with. I will admit there is sometimes a little anger when English incomers in the more rural parts act vociferously to stop development which would bring work for locals, but this is in reality just the same as what happens when incomers in rural England do exactly the same, and has little to do with their nationality and more to do with their NIMBYism.

On the other hand if you do come up and go into a pub or whatever and accuse the residents of being sponging subsidy junkies as you have done her it is perhaps not surprising your reception is a trifle cool.

Have a nice day.

Peter
 
whitbylad said:
On a slightly different tack, I considered joining the MOD Police on leaving the RAF (next year if I get redundancy) until I realised that I could be committing myself to a career spent on the wet, sorry, West Coast of Scotland with its rain and shorter days (on the plus side, the beer is good). If one of the South Coast bases shuts, I wonder how many of our fine sailors and families will choose to jump ship and stay down South.

Could we not get our subs serviced in America?

Whitby has a nice jetty.

We get very roughly the same daylight time over the year as you southerners, just we arrange it to have less in the winter when one doesn't really want to go out in the evening and more in the summer when you can put it to better use20 odd hours of daylight in the summer is jolly useful, but pretty useless at Christmas.

Peter
 

Seadog

War Hero
Moderator
On a slightly different line but more in keeping with the subject than some, I posted this on ARRSE a couple of years ago.

At the rate the Navy ( and the rest of the armed forces are being run down ) it may be difficult to justify having an Officer Corps at all. Future Navy will have a Boston Whaler, crew of nine commanded by a Leading Hand, a four man RM detachment under a L/Cpl a few shore staff under another Leading Hand and a RM Corporal ( who are also the restyled First Sea Leading Hand and Commandant Corporal) doing admin and supply. King William V will be Lord High Petty Officer.

Perhaps sooner than we thought.

Who said "shut Rosyth"? It ceased to be a Naval Base in 1996 (ish). Keep up!
 

stumpy

War Hero
Yes, but a lot of naval work still went on there.

I know how we can save the defence budget... by making cuts elsewhere.

Sell of the Houses of Parliament. Would make a lovely hotel. Build a new parliament on the outskirts of Birmingham, but don't fund it properly so they have to share rooms. Would save a fortune in housing costs for MPs. Then slash MPs pensions. Also scrape their allowances to buy property, and say, give them a loan of £8,5000 instead.
Only pay enough travel to go home every couple of weekends. Give cabinet ministers old landrovers and say that they will be safe from terrorists. Mmmm.

Or... instead of moving them to Birmingham, put them up in an old MOD base. Let them share accommodation, and keep saying, "We were going to build all new blocks, but the government has only funded enough for half of you."

;)
 
RE: Possibility of Pompey closing.

1. What does it have that can't be done ANYWHERE else? As others have mentioned - CVF and T45 could, in theory, be accomodated elsewhere; i.e. split between Rosyth and Guz.

2. Can we close Faslane or Guz? No. Faslane - Sub infrastructure + proximity to Coulport. Guz - new submarine building and proximity to Stonehouse for COMATG.

3. Future traffic lights: NELSON Wardroom being sold-off.
Further delay in dredging the channel for CVF.
Further acquisition and development of naval infrastructure in Rosyth and Portland.

Conclusion

4. It doesn't look good for Portsmouth. They could keep the voters happy with a 'long-term commitment' to the shore-based Fleet HQ and training centres, which would buy them latitude for the sale/leasing of SULTAN to developers OR the Army (if the heavy armour feasibility studies work-out). Portsmouth could certainly do with carving itself a niche soon or lose out.
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
Wilberforce_Banyanker said:
... the sale/leasing of SULTAN to developers OR the Army (if the heavy armour feasibility studies work-out). Portsmouth could certainly do with carving itself a niche soon or lose out.

SULTAN is as good as sold. Standby for a the big move to Bordon/Arborfield, circa 2012, if not sooner.

Levers
 

Not_a_boffin

War Hero
W_B

Catch yourself on mate. There is no way on Gods green that CVF will get into either Guzz or Rosyth in an operational state. There isn't a wharf at Guzz that would take her anyway, unless you took up all of WML.

People are falling into the pollies trap here - either Scotland vs England or Guzz vs Pompey for closure, rather than saying we need more funds. It's unlikely to be closure, purely because of the wharfage required at Easter / Summer / Xmas leave - assuming that Tone hasn't picked another fight then to really p1ss people about.

It makes more sense to concentrate sub upkeep activities in Guzz aand Surflot upkeep in Pompey - better facilities all round now VT have their steel & outfit sheds up & running. The problem is how do you keep Rosyth (Babcocks NOT a dockyard) open until they finish stitching CVF together?
 
To all you Pompey based matelots I'd start looking for house in the West Country or Scotland if I were you.

It's blindingly obvious that Pompey is the base that's going to shut. Just look at the bases one by one.

Guzz has become "The Centre of Amphibiousity", holds the nuclear licences for refitting the bombers and operating the SSNs up until 2015 and already has 3 Capital Ships based there, in addition to having the majority of the Booties (the Goverments play things) establishments in the vicinty.

Faslane will never shut because it's politically impossible, especially as the goverment have signed up to replace Trident (despite the lack of Parlimentary debate - mind you that's never really stopped Tony before), the Astute - when they eventually arrive - are to be based there and the small ships are slowly but surely being depatched up to Jockland.

In comparison Pompey subsequently holds what on the waterfront? Nothing.

Therefore it'll shut and the T45's and 23's will be based in Guzz and the carriers - IF we ever get them - will be based...... somewhere. And to Geoffery who says "Drakes Island" and "Vanguard Bank" are major problems and will result in Guzz being shut have you not watched Ocean, Albion and Bulwark - not to mention the easily navigable SSNs - going in and out!?

It'll be fair to say that it'll probably only be the waterfront that shuts in Pompey and Fleet will remain there, as well as the training establishments in the general area, but the rest of it? English Heritage site written all over it.
 
D

Deleted 493

Guest
neveragainonbombers said:
Therefore it'll shut and the T45's and 23's will be based in Guzz and the carriers - IF we ever get them - will be based...... somewhere. And to Geoffery who says "Drakes Island" and "Vanguard Bank" are major problems and will result in Guzz being shut have you not watched Ocean, Albion and Bulwark - not to mention the easily navigable SSNs - going in and out!?

Geoffrey knows everything. He's had 5 jobs at sea, you see.

Levers
 

Nigaramus

Lantern Swinger
"QUOTE "As for defence --well
they closed Chatham and just about all of the North Sea bases for the simple reason they became untenable due to the exit area's becoming easily blocked." END OF QUOTE"

Block Rhu Narrows and you have no chance of getting anything out of Faslane.
 
Nigaramus said:
"QUOTE "As for defence --well
they closed Chatham and just about all of the North Sea bases for the simple reason they became untenable due to the exit area's becoming easily blocked." END OF QUOTE"

Block Rhu Narrows and you have no chance of getting anything out of Faslane.


What they going to block it wiv------the water is a bit deep in that area
for mines and its well protected from air attack cos the hills either side.
Also there is a Minesweeper squadron based at Faslane . The Clyde is open to the Atlantic .

The North Sea has two exits North is definately harms way and South is the Dover straits.
 

safewalrus

War Hero
It'll be the usual half hearted lash up in which everybody suffers and no body gains! Guzz will keep FOST, a few boats and a refit facility of sorts (remember they ruined 9 Dock by fitting it out to take just four! vessels and that stupid big concrete block at the end (PCD) will remain just that for many years to come, most of it was redundant before the bloody dock opened!) tain't no use for bugger all else now - it's too short! Pompey will increase slightly but not much (the CVA's are just plain bullshit, we may get an escort carrier but my guess is the Ocean is the last carrier to be owned by this country) Rosyth will remain as a one ship base and Faslane will also keep a couple of boats if it's lucky - nope can't see much hope for anybody! Probably reintroduce the Privateer bill and let shipping companies run the Navy - But the RFA is already a big part of it and as I remember when I was with them it was run by the Merchant Navy - quarter of the crew and four times as good! so as the Merchant Navy is now all foreigners there is hope for somebody!
 
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