A Naval Base"Review", a Euphemism for Closure

[FlagWagger]

Mercury, Vernon, Daedalus, Dryad - gone. Dolphin - resurrected as an accommodation centre, but cannot survive. Haslar gone, all bar the shouting. Sultan - rumoured to be going in the not too distant future.

Collingrad - developed to the nines, so an attractive purchase for somebody, no doubt.

Faslane won't be closed, but because of what is based there, not the current Scots hue of the government. Rosyth could cope with the carriers and T45s, so a possibility because of the current Scots hue etc. Guzz would sink into the abyss without the RN, so that's unlikely.

Sorry, Portsmouth - you have most of the history and will survive as a tourist centre, so you are the weakest link - goodbye!

So Scotland and the West COuntry get the active service bases, while the two centres associated with Nelson will have bnecome heritage sites (Chatham who built the Victory and Pompey who display it).

 

[janner]

Portland has become more attractive since being sold, already extensions are planned/underway to accomodate the RFA's that use it, also talk of a Z berth in the near future. Plenty of deep water, could the carriers get in there as well?

 

[Always_a_Civvy]

Where have we just spent the most money modernising ?
That's normally a sure sign of imminent closure.


Some people call me an old cynic. I like to think I'm a mature realist !?

You're quite right! They abolished the Observer Corps after spending millions refurbishing our comms equipment! Beware! Give me shabby conditions anyday.

 

[Not_a_boffin]

a_d 2 a-d

Have you been to Rosyth recently? It's a ghost town, with Babcocks slowly retreating to the building directly around the basin. There is NO, I repeat NO alongside berthing for a CVF with any sort of loading condition. Just because they're stitching it together there doesn't mean that they could actually accommodate an operational ship. All tehmold naval base jetties are now a bustling commercial port, so you can forget sticking 45's there as well.

 

[Maxi_77]

a_d 2 a-d

Have you been to Rosyth recently? It's a ghost town, with Babcocks slowly retreating to the building directly around the basin. There is NO, I repeat NO alongside berthing for a CVF with any sort of loading condition. Just because they're stitching it together there doesn't mean that they could actually accommodate an operational ship. All tehmold naval base jetties are now a bustling commercial port, so you can forget sticking 45's there as well.

As the old jetties you mention are now operated by Forth Ports all you need is the right money and you can use them any time you want.

At least there is a lot of activity going on to develop the parts that Babcick don't want for other industrial purposes rather than just letting it all rot away.

Peter

 

[exmatelot]

This country is going to get it's arse kicked soon as a result of ship sales, base closures, manpower reductions, regiment amalgamations and cutbacks in general across all 3 services. No political party of any hue that I can see offers anything else, the forces just aren't the pride of the country anymore - though what else they could do to reverse that is beyond me. It's just service personnel, ex-service personnel, their families, and those directly or indirectly employed by the services that seem to care. It's a crying shame.
Just remember who's let down who :evil:

 

[Clouseau]

This country is going to get it's arse kicked soon as a result of ship sales, base closures, manpower reductions, regiment amalgamations and cutbacks in general across all 3 services. No political party of any hue that I can see offers anything else, the forces just aren't the pride of the country anymore - though what else they could do to reverse that is beyond me. It's just service personnel, ex-service personnel, their families, and those directly or indirectly employed by the services that seem to care. It's a crying shame.
Just remember who's let down who :evil:

So, more schools and hospitals OR more Ships, Tanks, and Aircraft?

Ask that to the electorate!

 

[geoffrey]

Sorry, Portsmouth - you have most of the history and will survive as a tourist centre, so you are the weakest link - goodbye!

I disagree - there are effectively 4 naval bases, 3 with ships (ie not Rosyth) and 3 with refitting capability (ie not Faslane) - this review, like all reviews a euphemism for "cuts", is predicated on losing one of the 3 refit capabilities, so Faslane was never in the frame. And with the D154 project complete, nuclear licensing issues, FOST being there, the SCXAs being there and everything else everyone has said, esp DML being owned indirectly by Dick "My boss is fellated by your PM" Cheney, Devonport will never disappear. So, it's a straight choice between Portsmouth and Rosyth.

Logically, with its location, lack of naval base status, dearth of uniformed back office support (inc decent accom etc), Rosyth should close. But with this corrupt shower of twunts in power, and Gordon Brown's constituency location, this is probably not as obvious as everyone else sees.

POrtsmouth, the home of the RN, with the new HQ, the integrated Maritime Warfare School, including outstations, being spread round the area, and 90% (yes, that's 90%) of personnel in the surface flotilla expressing it as their preference (officers and ratings, small and large ships), should never close. Most wives/other halves are happy to commute to somewhere in the South East in order to have their own career, but apart from Exeter, where does the Guzz based family work? FOr the first time since WW2, a naval town (ie Pompey) is actually becoming a nice place to live....

Furthermore, although the mess that is South Yard (once known as HMNB Devonport, while the North Yard was HMNB Keyham, apparently) could be redeveloped to fit T45s and CVF, there's the slight inconvenience of "Vanguard Bank" and Drake's Island.

Soooooooooooooo, it's a straight battle between political bribery for the constituency of yet another corrupt Labour minister ruling us pliable English, or common sense, billions of investment and the only logical place for the FLeet to be based, and the only sociable location left in the UK for a sailor to be based.

 

[geoffrey]

Here's a quick message to Caroline Dineage, the erstwhile Conservative parliamentary candidate for Portsmouth, who always gets pipped at the post by the Lib Dems at election time:



Get "Dave" Cameron to promise to save Portsmouth Naval Base if the Tories win power and you'll win the seat. Easily.

 

[higthepig]

N-A-B Eagle and Ark Royal were Guzz ships No 10 dock being the only one that would take them, and i think you`ll find that the new CVAs will not be much bigger.

 

[Greenie]

With reference to the mention that Faslane doesn't do refits well they have
ship lifts installed there and the bombers get pulled out of the water no problem.

Deep water port-loads of space and the clyde shipyards just down the river
[whats left of them!!] I think its time the Mod spread its wings a bit and left the sunny south coast --with the crowded conditions .

As for Scotland /Rosyth being shunted well the redundant bases are still in situ and mothballed at the moment .Unlike the south and east coasts -sold off to commercial enterprises.

 

[stumpy]

A few yearsa go there was a Yes Minister episode where Hacker planned to move the RN and Army from the south to Scotland, nearer the Soviet threat.

Maybe Labour have finally seen an old episode and thought "What a good idea!" ...just as the threats are all south of us...

The answer is obvious. Shut Rosyth. Portsmouth, with its huge number of bases, easier access for CVF and Type 45s is obvious to keep. Or have a Minister with the balls to tell the treasury to .... well you can guess. If they want permanent war in far off places, fine, but fund it properly not with further cuts. Oh, but hangon, isn't he a treasury man? And Scottish? Bugger.

 

[stumpy]

And another thing... surely time when your ship is in maintenance is valuable time to see your family, therefore it is surely logical to have it done near where most sailors live...not in Rosyth ffs! Otherwise, the ship will have to spend more time in base port later, and less time operationally.

 

[Deleted 493]

And another thing... surely time when your ship is in maintenance is valuable time to see your family, therefore it is surely logical to have it done near where most sailors live...not in Rosyth ffs! Otherwise, the ship will have to spend more time in base port later, and less time operationally.

Lowest bidder wins that one. And the influence of business. I have spent a year on a 42 in Guzz, a year on one in Rosyth and recently eight months on a carrier in Rosyth. And I am a Pompey RA. The most recent one cost me almost £2k to augment the pisspoor GYH(P) package.

As you remember, to get round outher paying benefits they make any ship refitting in Rosyth into a Rosyth-based ship. Ask them why and you get smoke and mirrors.

Levers

 

[Maxi_77]

Soooooooooooooo, it's a straight battle between political bribery for the constituency of yet another corrupt Labour minister ruling us pliable English, or common sense, billions of investment and the only logical place for the FLeet to be based, and the only sociable location left in the UK for a sailor to be based.

The more I think about it the more I see this as being very related to the parliament elections up here in May next year. Gordon has to ensure that he can turn in good news for the Fife area or his home powerbase is going to be severely impacted and his apparently safe seat will be at risk. Equally he cannot let the party up here lose any more power, they are already in coalition and could lose power completely if the SNP may any significant gains at all. Thus I suspect there will be tinkering with the role at Faslane and Devonport both to scare potential SNP voters in the west, and prepare for the worst, an SNP victory in Scotland that could threaten the basing of the deterent in Faslane. If at the same time they can pick up voters in Pompey and Gus at the same time, it will be win/win for Gordon.

Remeber Des is one of Gordons handmaidens.

Peter

 

[janner]

Well done the Mod.

 

[Deleted 493]

So it's Scotland v England again eh? I'm Scottish and spent the first 5 years of my naval life in England, didn't whinge about it, kept my draft chit in and bingo, 3rd time of asking I'm off up north. The more I view these pages the more I see the little Englander, in fact it's painfully obvious. Rosyth was sacrificed years ago, after all the money was spent on the nuke facilities, and after Guzz dockyard was shown to be geologically unsound for the same facilities. "Who cares, it's only the f*cking Jocks, f*ck them". You want a naval base? Try parking the Tridents a bit closer to London. No I don't think so either. The English ask why we Scots want out of the "Union", it's because the English are a bunch of arrogant, self serving c~nts.

Whereas the Scottish are nothing of the sort, are they? There's no paranoia, centuries of misguided, brooding indignation, tub-thumping crowing about next-to-****-all and a raw, illogical hatred and jealousy of neighbouring states and principalities based on the inability to move the **** on and get over it. Let's also not mention how many Scots work in England at their benefit and how much of a disaster a split from the union would be for Scotland.

Rosyth wasn't sacrificed years ago. By pure dint of fact - many DD FF and CVS refits are done there despite the fact that DML own large un-weather dependent refitting sheds and Rosyth just has the synchrolift for small vessels, itself looking quite decrepit these days. Okay, they lost the sub contract. But as a going venture, it is a lot livlier than Pompey these days and fares a lot better snuggled in near GBs constituency.

Don't align your obvious prejudices with what you believe to be 'Little Englander' mentality. The day Scots can allow themselves to be part of the Union is the day all the childish bickering will stop. It's taken 400 years to get nowhere where you're concerned, hasn't it?

Levers

EDIT>


Please leave this argument live.

 

[Not_a_boffin]

Hig

I know Eagle & Ark were Guz, but the new ones ARE bigger, (by about 100 foot of length, 50 ft of overall beam and a good 8ft on draught. The QHM have also put a "limit" on what they're comfortable with and believe it or not, it's LESS than Eagle / Ark. 9 & 10 docks can't be used as they are the Trident refit & standy docks and the CVF sponsons are too wide for them.

Guz is on a very sticky wicket as far as SurFlot refits go, the refit complex is too small and won't take T45, leaving 8 dock as the only option and the shenanigans to get ammunitioned ships berthed mixed in with boats and the NRC have to be seen to be believed.

 

[geoffrey]

...
The English ask why we Scots want out of the "Union", it's because the English are a bunch of arrogant, self serving c~nts.

Whereas the Scottish are nothing of the sort, are they? There's no paranoia, centuries of misguided, brooding indignation, tub-thumping crowing about next-to-****-all and a raw, illogical hatred and jealousy of neighbouring states and principalities based on the inability to move the **** on and get over it. Let's also not mention how many Scots work in England at their benefit and how much of a disaster a split from the union would be for Scotland.

Rosyth wasn't sacrificed years ago. By pure dint of fact - many DD FF and CVS refits are done there despite the fact that DML own large un-weather dependent refitting sheds and Rosyth just has the synchrolift for small vessels, itself looking quite decrepit these days. Okay, they lost the sub contract. But as a going venture, it is a lot livlier than Pompey these days and fares a lot better snuggled in near GBs constituency.

Don't align your obvious prejudices with what you believe to be 'Little Englander' mentality. The day Scots can allow themselves to be part of the Union is the day all the childish bickering will stop. It's taken 400 years to get nowhere where you're concerned, hasn't it?

Levers

Hear hear, Levers. I'm a complete Unionist, but over the last few years have become increasingly annoyed by the whining of a once great nation, reduced to nothing more than a Braveheart-obsessed welfare state, living off the money that the English provide under the Barnett formula. Although I'd love the UK to remain as an entity, a huge benefit of the expensive whingers being set adrift into the 2nd world irrelevance they so crave is that the rest of the country can be ruled by their own, not lorded it by the corrupt tartan bastards from haggisland.

While it must be frustrating for the few Scottish good eggs who serve their Queen and country to be based a long way from home, sheer fact of numbers means that most sailors want to be the SE of England - even those from Liverpool, Glasgow and Birmingham - because that's where the UK transport infrastructure is centred. Remember - 90% of surflot personnel express Portsmouth as their first choice.

In sum, Rosyth is a shitpit and Babcock only exist for political expedience purposes. Do a "Ravenscraig", or a "Dounreay", or a "Govan" - if it's crap, outdated and expensive ........ close it.

 

[FlagWagger]

The Scots understood what "Union" meant, unfortunately as comments here have suggested (yet again) the English thought it meant subsuming Scotland. I've no doubt the anti-Scots comments come from those pissed off because we have not allowed that to happen. The Union is past it's sell by date now, I can only hope the divorce isn't drawn out.
Do you seriously expect us to accept second-best all the time. You've had our oil now you want our power and water. Who's the scroungers? I'd suggest it's the effeminate wanks from south of the border.

Union - a joining of equals.

Where is the equality in the current set-up? The UK is goverened by a Scots dominated Cabinet - I have no problem with this; English policy is set by a Scottish dominated parliament by MPs who cannot themselves affect their own constituencies - I have a problem with this.

NHS - the inequality in funding to Scotland results in drugs/treatments being available North of the Border, but not in England. Is this a fair union?

Education - Scottish students pay no top-up fees, unlike English students; why? English tax-payers are once again providing a subsidy.

As a Navy brat I spent many years of my childhood in Scotland and was very happy there. Indeed, since my formative years were spent in Scotland amongst Scottish people I used to regard myself as part Scottish (by influence if not by pedigree). Some of my speech patterns contain Scottish words and phrases, yet since devolution, I've visited Scotland several times and felt threatened once my accent had been heard - an instant judgement, he speaks like an Englishman therefore he must be hated. In my experience the Scots today are racist (especially towards the English) and xenophobic; your rants just reinforce this impression.

I think I'll live with my childhood memories and forego the pleasure of visiting Scotland again - yes, there's the scenery, the culture, the food (not deep fried Mars bars!) that I'll miss, but by God I won't miss the insults, the hostility, the threatening atmosphere or the hatred just because I have an English accent.