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A land unfit for heroes

rum_rat

Lantern Swinger
I was demobbed from the RN 12 years before the Falklands war but today I am going to a remembrance day parade for those service personnel who died then and since 25 years ago.

From The Sunday Times June 10, 2007

This week, Falklands war veterans commemorate their victory 25 years ago. About 300 men who came home will be missing from the parades. They have killed themselves. Many more are battling suicide, and veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan are swelling their ranks. This is their story — and they’re angry Report: Michael Bilton


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1899458.ece
 
I went to the royal navy presentation team presentation the other day, a question was rasied by an ex service man regarding the after care of service personal, the guy in charge went into how resettlement is offered to all thoughs who leave ( yes as long as you weren't a naughty boy or girl and kicked out then you get bugger all no matter how many wars you were in) and how there were plenty of oragainisation that will help ex servicemen/women.

Why then are so many falling through the net?

Well they can't expect the orgainisations to come find them they have to find the orgainisation

my replie to this would have been :Surely the fact so many are falling through the net proves that the whole system is in urgent need of an over hall, over streched charities are doing what should be a job done by the govenment.

Don't even get me started on the answer to the why shut military hospitals question
 
Sure I read somewhere that most of the homeless sleeping rough in London alone were ex servicemen. Thats without taking into account the ones WITH houses, jobs, families etc that STILL feel all alone in this world. It is a shameful state of affairs and I wish I knew the answer to it. Pride and Dignity are all well and good, but sometimes those suffering in silence need to be told that all it takes is one phone call to get the help so many of them desperately need. A series of adverts would be great to highlight the help available, but these cost a lot of money and I don't think that the service charities have enough to pay for them.
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
wompingwillow said:
the guy in charge went into how resettlement is offered to all thoughs who leave ( yes as long as you weren't a naughty boy or girl and kicked out then you get bugger all no matter how many wars you were in) and how there were plenty of oragainisation that will help ex servicemen/women.

Why then are so many falling through the net?

Well they can't expect the orgainisations to come find them they have to find the orgainisation

I'm an ex-Falklands thingy too, but I agree with the answer from the RNPT. We aren't failing them, some of them are too proud to ask for help, others don't know how to ask.

All we can do is keep plugging SSAFA and the like, but advertising costs money that may be better placed providing care. Still don't know what the answer is, but the help is most definitely there to those that need it.
 

Karma

War Hero
wompingwillow said:
Why then are so many falling through the net?

Well they can't expect the orgainisations to come find them they have to find the orgainisation

my replie to this would have been :Surely the fact so many are falling through the net proves that the whole system is in urgent need of an over hall, over streched charities are doing what should be a job done by the govenment.

It's widely recognised that there are a lot of people suffering from various psychological injuries as a result of their service, but it's also well known that those psychological injusries may take years to manifest themselves. In addition that manifestation may have been heavily influenced by other circumstances since leaving the service.

It seems that many of those suffering difficulty do so after a protracted period of failing to adjust to life in the real world. I was in discussion with someone from one of the charities about a year ago who suggested that the average time to reach a real problem state was around 5 years.

Now we need to prioritise the defence budget, and I'm not convinced that the cost to implement tracking out to ten years post service would be significant. I'm also philosophically more inclined to avoid the level of state interference which that would involve. The difficulty is we do train people to be self reliant, hence a reticence about flagging up issues to the system.

In addition there is a question of entitlement, just how much does the crown owe one for the time spent in service, and should it discriminate subject to the commitment one shows, and should that reduce over time following discharge? Is someone who spent five years, twenty years ago as deserving as someone who served twenty years, finishing five years ago?

Don't even get me started on the answer to the why shut military hospitals question

Now that's a whole different debate, and frankly unrelated to aftercare.
 

Ninja_Stoker

War Hero
Moderator
Karma said:
Is someone who spent five years, twenty years ago as deserving as someone who served twenty years, finishing five years ago?

Oooh, my brain hurts on that one! :scratch:
 

Karma

War Hero
Lamri said:
What question of entitlement?
If you've served, then you are entitled. End of story.

OK, there is a finite amount of cash to fund any initiative, so decisions have to be made?

In the example above imagine there is only enough cash to provide support to one of the two individuals. Which one should get support?
 

slim

War Hero
Karma said:
Lamri said:
What question of entitlement?
If you've served, then you are entitled. End of story.

OK, there is a finite amount of cash to fund any initiative, so decisions have to be made?

In the example above imagine there is only enough cash to provide support to one of the two individuals. Which one should get support?

How about robbing from the funds that supports the health and welfare of illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers?
 
What ARE you talking about?
This "cash" pays for what exactly?
Psychiatric help?
Clothing?
A drop in centre?
What?
You don't actually throw cash at someone do you, it is used to pay for services. These services are then available to ALL aren't they.

Edit: Sorry Womps that isn't at you ;)
 

Karma

War Hero
Lamri said:
What ARE you talking about?
This "cash" pays for what exactly?
Psychiatric help?
Clothing?
A drop in centre?
What?
You don't actually throw cash at someone do you, it is used to pay for services. These services are then available to ALL aren't they.

Yes the cash pays for services, those services themselves can only cater for a finite number of people; psychiatric help comes in chunks of one hour consultations, or bed-spaces in a residential unit, clothing etc. At some point the cash runs out, so how do you decide where the thresholds are?

Even something like a drop-in centre has limitations, how many drop in centres can you afford to pay for, inevitably there won't be enough of them for people to be able to get to one at times. What hours are they open, can the funding afford to have them open outside working hours so that those in work can use them for some purposes?

OK, assuming that you're saying five years service is enough, what about three years, what about someone who doesn't actually complete training?
 

Karma

War Hero
slim said:
Karma said:
Lamri said:
What question of entitlement?
If you've served, then you are entitled. End of story.

OK, there is a finite amount of cash to fund any initiative, so decisions have to be made?

In the example above imagine there is only enough cash to provide support to one of the two individuals. Which one should get support?

How about robbing from the funds that supports the health and welfare of illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers?

Doesn't answer the question, funds remain finite. And isn't that particular hobby horse getting ready for the knackers yard yet? ;)
 

Karma

War Hero
wompingwillow said:
Lamri said:
What question of entitlement?
If you've served, then you are entitled. End of story.

which is the SAAFI's rules is it not ( and possalbe the British legions as well?)

Indeed, but both of them have different funding models, and their not also funding military salaries, pensions, equipment, running costs, training etc.

Which is not to say that there aren't lots of opportunities for savings within defence itself, but what could those savings be put towards?
 
Karma said:
Lamri said:
What ARE you talking about?
This "cash" pays for what exactly?
Psychiatric help?
Clothing?
A drop in centre?
What?
You don't actually throw cash at someone do you, it is used to pay for services. These services are then available to ALL aren't they.

Yes the cash pays for services, those services themselves can only cater for a finite number of people; psychiatric help comes in chunks of one hour consultations, or bed-spaces in a residential unit, clothing etc. At some point the cash runs out, so how do you decide where the thresholds are?

Even something like a drop-in centre has limitations, how many drop in centres can you afford to pay for, inevitably there won't be enough of them for people to be able to get to one at times. What hours are they open, can the funding afford to have them open outside working hours so that those in work can use them for some purposes?

OK, assuming that you're saying five years service is enough, what about three years, what about someone who doesn't actually complete training?

I haven't said 5 years service is enough though have I.
You don't need to assume what i've said or not said.
Read my posts.
 
Karma said:
Doesn't answer the question, funds remain finite. And isn't that particular hobby horse getting ready for the knackers yard yet? ;)

No, I don't think it is ;)
How many Veterans Hospitals would £1Billion per year buy?
 

Karma

War Hero
Lamri said:
I haven't said 5 years service is enough though have I.
You don't need to assume what i've said or not said.

You said everyone, clearly that encompasses five years service, but it serves as a useful vehicle to explore the issue.

Does someone who didn't complete training qualify?
 

Karma

War Hero
Lamri said:
Karma said:
Doesn't answer the question, funds remain finite. And isn't that particular hobby horse getting ready for the knackers yard yet? ;)

No, I don't think it is ;)
How many Veterans Hospitals would £1Billion per year buy?

Would veterans hospitals be the right thing to spend the money on?

fwiw I have a couple of friends associated with the Combat Stress charity, so I'm fairly aware of some of the issues.

One of the biggest is the difficulty individuals have adapting to civilian life. My own experience of the resettlement treadmill is that it's not good at that aspect. I was quite fortunate, I went onto the treadmill knowing exactly what I was going to do when I left, and what courses I wanted to complete. The main thing I got from the resettlement people was advice on the best way to exploit the available funding to pay for it.

I got the impression from some in the system that they were just being sent on courses to use up the funding, rather than really exploring their strengths and weaknesses etc. I'm sure some ended up in the wrong type of career route as a result. Unfortunately once that route is set, then ending up needing to call on support later is even more likely.

Most of the support which would help wouldn't best be delivered in yet another institution.

Whilst I realise that in an idealised situation there would be enough money to do everything we would want to do, in reality that is not the case. Even if we were 100% taxed and all used shared services, there would not be enough money to provide everyone with all of their requirements.
 
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