£2bn Navy ships get the OK

smoothbore

Lantern Swinger
The RN completed a study some time ago in to where the CVF could be built - and crucially where it could be supported throughout its life. All options were considered from Harland & Wolf to Southampton, via Nigg & places in between. Its true that sections of the ship (5 "Super blocks" I think that they are called) will be built in various locations but the blocks WILL be assembled in Rosyth - it was assessed by a very senior team that Rosyth is the only Yard in the UK which can be used for both the assembly and ongoing refits/ dry dockings etc. Getting the vessels under the Bridge at all states of the tide is a key design constraint.
 

flatscrubber

Badgeman
Personally i'll actually believe it when i see them flying the white ensign and launching whatever type of plane off their flight decks.
Theres still a long way to go and if they are built its no guarantee they'll enter service.
Anyone remember the Upholder class submarines!!!
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
hammockhead said:
I've heard it's going to be no taller than CVS because of the need to fit under the bridge?


True, only MOD could design a warship with the clearance under a jockinese bridge as one of the defining design parameters. :?
 
Maybe it's just me but I can't find any official announcements by the M o D regarding the carriers. Can anybody point me in the right direction?
 
aberdeenlad said:
Maybe it's just me but I can't find any official announcements by the M o D regarding the carriers. Can anybody point me in the right direction?

It's not you mate. No (new) official announcement yet - we have 4 pages of gossip/ conjecture here, all based on an article which has only appeared in the Sun. Hardly an authoritative source and with about as much credibility as the Beano.
 

Not_a_boffin

War Hero
Gents

How about some facts as the project stands now?

1. The design (delta) is around 280m long, 70m beam (at flight deck) and will have a full load displacement of 65000 tonnes at start of life. She has growth margin built in for an end of life displacement of 75000 tonnes (ish) at which she will draw over 11metres draft. She is nowhere near as big as a Nimitz, more like the Midway after her rebuilds.

2. She will have to get under the bridge to Rosyth. The top portion of one of her masts (I think the TACAN antenna) is hinged to help this.

3. Currently, as we are buying the wrong version of F35 Dave, she will have a ski-ramp and no cats and arrester gear, although provision is made for them and we might just get lucky.......

4. ......Because the STOVL aircraft is struggling with it's "bringback" weight, all sorts of options are being looked at to try and get around it, including "rolling vertical landings". These involve landing on the deck at below 40 knots relative speed (so partly wingborne, partly thrustborne), chopping the engine, standing on the brakes and hoping that you have enough deck to stop in. Because you've chopped the throttle, there is no possibility of boltering (going round again). If we're that desperate, we might just buy the proper aircraft instead........

5. The ship will be assembled at Rosyth and Babcocks will build the small bow superblock. The other three superblocks will be built by VT at pompey and a mixture of BAE systems yards on the Clyde (and possibly Barrow). There are some rumours about that the French may be given a superblock to build as workshare compensation for the ludicrous amount of money they paid for a not very detailed design. In addition to the superblocks (which only extend from the keel to the hangar deck), everything above the hangar deck will go out to competition to build, which is one of the major risks.

6. No way in Gods green earth will the shpis make their ISD of 2012 and 2015. The first might just be on contractor sea trials by 2012, but Pt IV and first of class trials will follow that before she's actually "in-service". Doesn't matter that much because the first squadrons of F35 won't be operational until after 2015 anyway, so the first ship will initially operate GR9 Harrier.

7. AIUI the Defence Management Board have approved the build funding, but Min DP (Lord Drayson) is intent on recreating British Shipbuilders (Warship Division) and will not give the go-ahead until BAE systems and VT have merged their shipbuilding arms to form a new company (often referred to as ShitCo, sorry ShipCo). Most of this has now been done, but not quickly enough to avoid getting too close to the Scottish, Welsh and local elections, so the announcement has been put off until after them. Of course it hasn't stopped a frenzy of leaks and spinning along the lines of "vote gordon if you know whats good for you".....

8. Lurking behind all this is the forthcoming Comprehensive Spending Review, which is one reason behind all the rumours of ships decommissioning, the Naval Base Review etc. It is due towards the back end of the summer at which, if the ships are not on contract, Gordons henchmen in the Treasury may well give the RN a choice along the lines of "carriers or a surface flotilla?"

9. There is NO plan B. If CVF is binned, carrier aviation will cease in the RN when Ark decommissions in 2015 (or sooner if carrier aviation has no future). There are NO smaller designs sitting in filing cabinets or on computers ready to be brought forward - in any case they would not pass scrutiny against "the requirement" (which is NOT to have a Fleet AD capability, it is to generate strike sorties above a certain number per day). CVS cannot operate F35 (it has been studied to death), nor can GR9 be realistically life extended.

10. (conjecture) This is it boys and girls. No CVF - no carrier aviation, no carrier aviation - no worldwide role, no worldwide role - no surface fleet (or subs for that matter), unless someone notices what Ivan is quietly doing and does something about it.....

11. The design is far from perfect - its too slow (25kts), way too expensive for what it actually contains and probably doesnt have enough accommodation to operate the full airgroup, but it is the only game in town. If it doesn't happen, para 10 above will probably come to pass.
 

flatscrubber

Badgeman
Not_a_boffin said:
Gents

How about some facts as the project stands now?

1. The design (delta) is around 280m long, 70m beam (at flight deck) and will have a full load displacement of 65000 tonnes at start of life. She has growth margin built in for an end of life displacement of 75000 tonnes (ish) at which she will draw over 11metres draft. She is nowhere near as big as a Nimitz, more like the Midway after her rebuilds.

2. She will have to get under the bridge to Rosyth. The top portion of one of her masts (I think the TACAN antenna) is hinged to help this.

3. Currently, as we are buying the wrong version of F35 Dave, she will have a ski-ramp and no cats and arrester gear, although provision is made for them and we might just get lucky.......

4. ......Because the STOVL aircraft is struggling with it's "bringback" weight, all sorts of options are being looked at to try and get around it, including "rolling vertical landings". These involve landing on the deck at below 40 knots relative speed (so partly wingborne, partly thrustborne), chopping the engine, standing on the brakes and hoping that you have enough deck to stop in. Because you've chopped the throttle, there is no possibility of boltering (going round again). If we're that desperate, we might just buy the proper aircraft instead........

5. The ship will be assembled at Rosyth and Babcocks will build the small bow superblock. The other three superblocks will be built by VT at pompey and a mixture of BAE systems yards on the Clyde (and possibly Barrow). There are some rumours about that the French may be given a superblock to build as workshare compensation for the ludicrous amount of money they paid for a not very detailed design. In addition to the superblocks (which only extend from the keel to the hangar deck), everything above the hangar deck will go out to competition to build, which is one of the major risks.

6. No way in Gods green earth will the shpis make their ISD of 2012 and 2015. The first might just be on contractor sea trials by 2012, but Pt IV and first of class trials will follow that before she's actually "in-service". Doesn't matter that much because the first squadrons of F35 won't be operational until after 2015 anyway, so the first ship will initially operate GR9 Harrier.

7. AIUI the Defence Management Board have approved the build funding, but Min DP (Lord Drayson) is intent on recreating British Shipbuilders (Warship Division) and will not give the go-ahead until BAE systems and VT have merged their shipbuilding arms to form a new company (often referred to as ShitCo, sorry ShipCo). Most of this has now been done, but not quickly enough to avoid getting too close to the Scottish, Welsh and local elections, so the announcement has been put off until after them. Of course it hasn't stopped a frenzy of leaks and spinning along the lines of "vote gordon if you know whats good for you".....

8. Lurking behind all this is the forthcoming Comprehensive Spending Review, which is one reason behind all the rumours of ships decommissioning, the Naval Base Review etc. It is due towards the back end of the summer at which, if the ships are not on contract, Gordons henchmen in the Treasury may well give the RN a choice along the lines of "carriers or a surface flotilla?"

9. There is NO plan B. If CVF is binned, carrier aviation will cease in the RN when Ark decommissions in 2015 (or sooner if carrier aviation has no future). There are NO smaller designs sitting in filing cabinets or on computers ready to be brought forward - in any case they would not pass scrutiny against "the requirement" (which is NOT to have a Fleet AD capability, it is to generate strike sorties above a certain number per day). CVS cannot operate F35 (it has been studied to death), nor can GR9 be realistically life extended.

10. (conjecture) This is it boys and girls. No CVF - no carrier aviation, no carrier aviation - no worldwide role, no worldwide role - no surface fleet (or subs for that matter), unless someone notices what Ivan is quietly doing and does something about it.....

11. The design is far from perfect - its too slow (25kts), way too expensive for what it actually contains and probably doesnt have enough accommodation to operate the full airgroup, but it is the only game in town. If it doesn't happen, para 10 above will probably come to pass.

I found that a really informative post Boffin,however i still don't think that they will enter service. By the time they do(probably in 2020 or something like that!!)our worldwide role will have been totally diminished and the remannts of the Navy will be in a French Controlled Euro Fleet with its headquarters in Brussels!!
 

Oil_Slick

War Hero
Not_a_boffin said:
Gents

How about some facts as the project stands now?


Basically the whole project went to ratshiite the minute they decided to design the carrier around the plane the RAF wanted rather than what the Navy needed.

The F35B has half the internal weapons load, 2/3rds the range and costs 50% more than the USN's F35C version… add up the £15 million a plane x 150 we are paying as a premium to keep the RAF happy and it's quite an eye opener.

When you look at it objectvely, we are not getting a fast fleet carrier, we are getting a glorified mobile barge with a very austere equipment fit and an utterly basic flight deck on top so the Crabs can join in the next bunfight.


And the ultimate irony?

After we've spent 9 years dicking about developing a STVOL carrier. the RAF are now looking at the possibility of converting some of it's F35B purchase into the F35C to fulfil it's FOAS requirement.

Yep, the Navy may well end up with the planes the RAF originally wanted and the RAF could end up with the planes the Navy originally wanted… another procurement 'triumph' in the making. :?
 

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