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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great

Joining at 22/23 as a non-grad has significant drawbacks, as does joining at 24/25 as a Grad.

I was wondering if you could just expand on the problems faces by joining at say 24 as a graduate rather than 21. The obvious one is that you will take longer to get through the jobs you have to do to tick the boxes and get to 2 and a half and then start trying to really work your way up the ladder but apart from the fact you will obviously be older what are the other issues faced?

Originally Posted by Powder

I am an ex \submarine officer, and started my first civvie job the Monday after leaving the service the friday before. Since then I have not been unemployed for more than a weekend, and that is after nealry 35 years on the retired list. As a service pilot you are almost unemployable without retraining, why would an airline pay for that when they can pick up type qualified pilots in the open market.

Thats good. What do you do now? I didnt say that the airliners will pay for retraining. I just mean't if you had the same license (ATPL) that the civies have, and have previous flying experience with the services, then you will be the superior choice.
I am just saying what a lot of people have told me, inc ex-servicemen.

Service pilots do not have the same licences as civilian pilots.
Though many do go on to qualify in civil aviation many do not. Service flying is completely different from civilian bus driving.

For RN Aircrew, the brutal truth is we prefer 18 year old undergraduates.

They give a longer usable return of service before they are promoted beyond flying duties & they don't come with the "life experience" of a university education & all the political crap that comes with it - in other words they do as they're told.

Originally Posted by Ninja_Stoker

For RN Aircrew, the brutal truth is we prefer 18 year old undergraduates.

They give a longer usable return of service before they are promoted beyond flying duties & they don't come with the "life experience" of a university education & all the political crap that comes with it - in other words they do as they're told.

This is music to my ears.

Result.

The problem is Ninja that while the RN wants bright, trainable 18 year olds as baby aircrew, the bright, trainable ones often know it (and so do their parents) so they go to university first.

My daughter is a great case in point - I'd say she'd make a great observer, and a good-enough pilot. But with three As in Maths, Physics and Biology she's sensibly going to Bristol for her degree, where she can join URNU/RNR/OTC/TA, and she'll apply at the start of her third year.

How about a gap year at BRNC to include grading, so that when they go to uni they know they'll be coming back, and when the RN gets them they can put them straight into flying training (assume they'll do Fleet attachments during each summer vacation).

Service pilots do not have the same licences as civilian pilots.
Though many do go on to qualify in civil aviation many do not. Service flying is completely different from civilian bus driving

I am quite aware. I have said this previously in the thread.
Thanks
PS: Everyone I have spoken to, who used to be flying in the forces (inc ex-red arrow pilot and manager) have said that commercial flying is VERY boring compaerd service and they usually leave and find another job anyway.

Originally Posted by Ninja_Stoker

For RN Aircrew, the brutal truth is we prefer 18 year old undergraduates.

They give a longer usable return of service before they are promoted beyond flying duties & they don't come with the "life experience" of a university education & all the political crap that comes with it - in other words they do as they're told.

FANTASTIC!

Originally Posted by chris78290

Originally Posted by alfred_the_great

Joining at 22/23 as a non-grad has significant drawbacks, as does joining at 24/25 as a Grad.

I was wondering if you could just expand on the problems faces by joining at say 24 as a graduate rather than 21. The obvious one is that you will take longer to get through the jobs you have to do to tick the boxes and get to 2 and a half and then start trying to really work your way up the ladder but apart from the fact you will obviously be older what are the other issues faced?

Right, this is a bit of a subtle one...

If you join at 24, you'll not get out into the Fleet in your first job until 26/27, and not move onto your Navs job (or equivilant) until your 30th birthday, or more probably until 31/32. You could then expect to be promoted to Lt Cdr, and then onto the PWO world. This then compresses the time you have to reach Cdr and be selected to Command at about 39/40. In turn, this will reduce the time you have available to reach Cdre and Admiral, and still retire at 55(ish).

I know this is thinking ultra-long term, and no more than 1 officer from a term's intake will make it to Cdre, but it is something you have to bear in mind if you want a longer term career.

Also to be factored in is your personal life at 30/31; typically you will have a spouse and kids on the way, and being treated as a relatively junior officer will definately lose it's appeal. This is not to say it can't be done, but being stiffed for random duties or staying behind for a basin trial is arse, and you won't be leaving that kind of job for another couple of years.

Just something to think about, and I factor I would have an answer for when you went to the AIB....

Originally Posted by airborne_artist

The problem is Ninja that while the RN wants bright, trainable 18 year olds as baby aircrew, the bright, trainable ones often know it (and so do their parents) so they go to university first.

The statement regarding ideal Aircrew candidates was actually quoted from a bone fide source well above my payscale & indeed above that of Captain AIB, Commodore BRNC & Captain Naval Recruiting. So that kind of narrows it down to the 41 or so Flag Officers. (Much to Normans' chagrin.)

There are heaps of bright trainable ones who are prepared to seize the opportunity offered at the optimum moment, so whether the powers that be feel it necessary to offer further incentive above an "in service" degree is open to conjecture.

It surprises some that last year the RN awarded 4 bursaries, 4 lower 6th scholarships & 1 upper 6th scholarships for Pilots & Observers combined, given that the amount of viable applicants far exceed the requirement without the need for financial incentive. Proposing a gap year at BRNC maybe pushing it that little bit beyond the bounds.

But, then again, having been heartily amused watching an exchange Commonwealth Navy helicopter pilot strutting his stuff wearing his flying coveralls & mirrored sunglasses at a quite recent airshow with 100% cloud cover, nothing fails to surprise some of us when it comes to recruiting pilots.