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Discuss Projection of Maritime Power in Libya in The Fleet on Navy Net; I know it's the Sun but its a related article so i thought i'd post it. £750m Harriers idle as Top Guns struggle in Libya | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys...
  1. #21
    Senior Member trehorn's Avatar
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    I know it's the Sun but its a related article so i thought i'd post it.

    £750m Harriers idle as Top Guns struggle in Libya | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys
    The Royal Navy Reserve - YESTERDAYS TECHNOLOGY - TODAY!

  2. #22
    Senior Member trelawney126's Avatar
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    Illius me paenitet dux

  3. #23
    Senior Member janner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trehorn View Post
    I know it's the Sun but its a related article so i thought i'd post it.

    £750m Harriers idle as Top Guns struggle in Libya | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys
    NG posted this yesterday
    janner



  4. #24
    Senior Member Naval_Gazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navy News website 18 Apr 2011
    TRUCKS for Colonel Gaddafi’s war machine were intercepted by HMS Liverpool as the ship helped draw a dragnet along the Libyan coast. The Portsmouth-based destroyer intercepted the MV Setubal Express, bound for Tripoli from Malta, and sent her boarding team of Royal Marines and sailors aboard. There, after a thorough search of the 13,000-ton ferry, they found trucks which could have been used by the Gaddafi regime. They also found the Setubal Express’ manifest did not tally.

    Liverpool is operating under the banner of NATO’s Operation Unified Protector. As a result of the destroyer’s inspection, NATO chiefs ordered the ferry not to proceed to Libya, but put into Salerno in Italy. In addition to enforcing the arms embargo, Liverpool's mission includes directing the Allied aerial mission over Libya enforcing the no-fly zone – including working with Coalition F18 jets, refuelling tankers and maritime patrol aircraft on surveillance missions. The destroyer also escorted a refugee ship leaving the beleaguered city of Misrata, scene of the most protracted and bitter fighting of the Libyan civil war...

    Liverpool is one of nearly 20 ships from eight nations (Belgium, Canada, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Turkey, and the UK) patrolling the Gulf of Sirte. There she’s joined by HMS Brocklesby which has broken off normal duties with a NATO minehunting force to support the international mission. Beneath the surface of the Mediterranean HMS Turbulent remains on stand-by to conduct Tomahawk cruise missile strikes against the Libyan Government’s military machine should they be needed. So far, they have not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansard 7 Mar 2011
    Mr Robathan: Savings from the withdrawal from service of HMS Ark Royal in December 2010 are estimated at £10 million in financial year 2011-12, £25 million in 2012-13, £35 million in 2013-14 and £35 million in 2014-15.
    N.B. A single RAF Typhoon costs £126 million excluding support.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Naval_Gazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Guardian 19 Apr 2011
    The British government has come under intense pressure over its response to the crisis in Libya as ministers prepared to dispatch a team of military officers to advise rebels fighting Muammar Gaddafi's forces and the RAF stepped up air strikes...

    The six European countries in the bombing campaign – led by the French and the British, and including the Danes, Norwegians and Belgians – along with the Canadians, appear to have closed the gap in the bombing capacity caused by the withdrawal of the US more than a fortnight ago. Officials said France had taken on the lead role, moving the Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier closer to the Libyan coast and placing the aircraft on board under Nato command. Officials pointed specifically to an attack near Tripoli that destroyed the communications facilities of Gaddafi's crack 32nd brigade, regarded as the most formidable unit in the regime's military. The aim was to cut the regime's supply lines and disrupt Gaddafi's ability to direct his forces...

    The British submarine HMS Triumph, is understood to have fired cruise missiles at Libyan targets over the past two days.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daily Telegraph 19 Apr 2011
    ...The military mission was announced as British forces took part in an attack that sources said heralded a change in Nato tactics. British and French warplanes carried out “deliberate, multiple strikes” on Gaddafi’s communication hubs. The Royal Navy submarine Triumph also launched Tomahawk cruise missiles...

    To overcome a shortage of Nato combat planes France has provided extra fighters and was moving its Charles De Gaulle aircraft carrier near to Misurata to provide “faster rotations and targeting”, said a source.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansard 7 Mar 2011
    Mr Robathan: Savings from the withdrawal from service of HMS Ark Royal in December 2010 are estimated at £10 million in financial year 2011-12, £25 million in 2012-13, £35 million in 2013-14 and £35 million in 2014-15.
    N.B. A single RAF Typhoon costs £126 million excluding support.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Naval_Gazer's Avatar
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    I wonder how long it will be before someone acknowledges the utility of seaborne helo gunships (with Forward Air Controllers) to augment the Fast Jets and thus provide full-time air cover? Nearly all of the land action has taken place within 3-5 km of the coast since the campaign began.

    Think how much heartache could have been avoided if Ghaddafi's forces had been prevented from moving along the coastal highway at all. Isn't it a shame no one thought of this earlier or am I missing something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansard 7 Mar 2011
    Mr Robathan: Savings from the withdrawal from service of HMS Ark Royal in December 2010 are estimated at £10 million in financial year 2011-12, £25 million in 2012-13, £35 million in 2013-14 and £35 million in 2014-15.
    N.B. A single RAF Typhoon costs £126 million excluding support.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Naval_Gazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marina Militare website - English translation
    Strait of Sicily on 19 April

    General Biagio Abraham, the Italian Chief of Defence Staff, has witnessed naval air operations for NATO's Operation UNIFIED PROTECTOR on board the aircraft carrier Garibaldi stationed north of the Gulf of Sirte.

    General Abraham arrived on board in an EH-101 helicopter along with reporters. He was greeted by Admiral Foffi Filippo Maria, Commander of the Altura [Offshore] Forces (COMFORAL) and Captain Marco Tomassetti, Commanding Officer of Garibaldi. The Chief of Defence Staff witnessed in-theatre naval operations including the take-off of AV-8B aircraft and EH-101, SH-3D and AB-212 helicopters.

    Following the passage of UN resolutions 1970 and 1973, the Italian Navy made four warships available to NATO for Operation UNIFIED PROTECTOR, patrolling the waters off the coast of Libya to enforce the embargo established by these resolutions: the aircraft carrier Garibaldi with its helicopters and planes, the frigate Libeccio, the offshore patrol vessel Bettica and the support ship Etna, the flagship of the Commander of the NATO naval force at sea which now includes 23 ships of the Alliance countries.

    Around 1,100 Italian naval men and 300 women are working in the central Mediterranean. Naval vessels engaged in Operation UNIFIED PROTECTOR have checked about 400 cargo vessels transiting to and from Libyan ports and conducted on-board inspections when appropriate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansard 7 Mar 2011
    Mr Robathan: Savings from the withdrawal from service of HMS Ark Royal in December 2010 are estimated at £10 million in financial year 2011-12, £25 million in 2012-13, £35 million in 2013-14 and £35 million in 2014-15.
    N.B. A single RAF Typhoon costs £126 million excluding support.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Naval_Gazer's Avatar
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    Surprise, surprise:
    Quote Originally Posted by Daily Telegraph 21 Apr 2011
    President Barack Obama has authorised the use of armed Predator drone aircraft in Libya, according to Robert Gates, US defence secretary...

    It is understood that the British want armed drones to patrol the skies above the besieged town of Misurata. Nato has difficulty getting air power over the port town in time to hit targets. It takes more than an hour to fly jets from southern Italy, although they can remain overhead with air-to-air refuelling. There are not enough of them to remain permanently overhead "manning a kill box".

    Air force chiefs are growing frustrated that Col Muammar Gaddafi's tanks or artillery fire a couple of rounds then withdraw before they can be hit...
    Isn't it strange that no one foresaw this problem of distance and isn't it criminal that we've ditched the ideal assets for overcoming it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naval_Gazer 24 Mar 2011 View Post
    ...This is all starting to make the £105m cost of running on Ark Royal until 2015 (link) and the Harrier GR9 official cost of £37k per hour (link) seem quite reasonable, particularly when taking into account the reduced fuel consumption offered by a carrier's closer proximity to the Libyan coast (saving nearly 1,000 nm per round trip from the Gioia del Colle airbase in southern Italy), the hire of base facilities, substantial logistics train and footprint, accommodation for aircrew and support personnel, etc.

    Apart from lower aircraft fuel consumption,carrier operations in close proximity to the target area offer other advantages such as platform mobility and flexibility, faster reaction time, shorter transits, longer time on task, quicker turnarounds, higher sortie generation, reduced crew fatigue, fewer airframe hours, lighter maintenance load, etc. A CVS roled for Strike/Anti-surface warfare can operate up to 18 Harriers which is four more aircraft than the RAF has in theatre but at only two thirds the total operating cost per aircraft hour (£940k vs £666k)....
    Quote Originally Posted by Naval_Gazer 25 Mar 2011 View Post
    ...Even with the RAF based at Gioia del Colle in southern Italy, its £35k per hour Tornados and £80k per hour Typhoons still face a 1,000 nm (1,850 km) round trip to the nearest bit of the Libyan coast with all the in-flight refuelling this entails...

    Perhaps Ocean will yet save the day with some useful Apache helicopter gunships. These would be even less efficient to operate from Italian bases, if able to operate from them at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Naval_Gazer 7 Apr 2011 View Post
    ...Not only would a dozen or more carrier-borne GR9s poised 12 nm off the Libyan coast have provided a more flexible and responsive ground attack capability with a higher sortie rate (ideal to react to the fast ebb and flow of current events) but a carrier could also have carried half a dozen helo gunships, all safely based within a few miles of the quickly-shifting frontline. From what I'm hearing on the news, these would be the answer to a maiden's prayer at the moment...
    While the Predator/Hellfire missile combo is a formidable capability, it lacks the situational awareness, target discrimination and weapons flexibility of a manned aircraft in the close-quarter situations evident around Misurata and similar areas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansard 7 Mar 2011
    Mr Robathan: Savings from the withdrawal from service of HMS Ark Royal in December 2010 are estimated at £10 million in financial year 2011-12, £25 million in 2012-13, £35 million in 2013-14 and £35 million in 2014-15.
    N.B. A single RAF Typhoon costs £126 million excluding support.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Naval_Gazer's Avatar
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    Interesting proposal from my old boss at the Maritime Warfare Centre:
    Quote Originally Posted by Daily Telegraph 21 Apr 2011
    By Chris Parry 8:30PM BST 21 Apr 2011

    Throughout my naval career, whenever chaos reigned, no one seemed to know what to do, or too many cooks were spoiling the broth, the same cry was heard: "Someone needs to take charge!" In Libya, all three conditions would seem to apply, with no evidence of any strategy in play beyond that of suck it and see. As successive crises threaten massacre and mayhem, Nato, the designated enforcer of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, looks like lastminute.com, with its provision of bargain-basement, "just in time" military intervention. We are, to paraphrase Tacitus, creating a stalemate and calling it peace...

    ...it seems sensible that the UK is continuing with its Cougar amphibious deployment to the Mediterranean, comprising HMS Albion, HMS Ocean, RFA Cardigan Bay and HMS Sutherland, together with elements of 40 Commando Royal Marines. Ostensibly, they will conduct littoral operations off Cyprus. But with their ability to provide more imaginative solutions to the crisis, their deployment might be an indication of the way ahead. Although boots on the ground might be a step too far, "fins" on the ground, able to deter and prevent serious attacks on civilians before returning to their ships, might prove acceptable – and the low-footprint approach would get around any sense of them being an occupying force.

    But even while we do our best to bring the Libyan mission to a speedy and successful conclusion, we must consider the broader implications. The very deployment of the Cougar force recognises that the Mediterranean is likely to be the source of political, economic and demographic challenges for some time to come. Over the next decade, a confusing array of demographic, climatic and societal pressures will severely challenge the political and economic realities with which Europeans have been comfortable for the past 60 years or so...
    Note that Admiral Parry is not advocating the presence of 'boots-on-the-ground' with their associated 'large footprint' ashore but a preventative force based offshore with the capability to deter and react quickly if required. COUGAR is the first amphibious force the RN has deployed for many years without the option of organic fixed-wing air. I hope the risk is justified.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansard 7 Mar 2011
    Mr Robathan: Savings from the withdrawal from service of HMS Ark Royal in December 2010 are estimated at £10 million in financial year 2011-12, £25 million in 2012-13, £35 million in 2013-14 and £35 million in 2014-15.
    N.B. A single RAF Typhoon costs £126 million excluding support.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Naval_Gazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoD website 19 Apr 2011
    The first of the RAF's future strategic tanker aircraft (FSTA) arrived in the UK for the first time today. The UK's largest ever military aircraft will be known as 'Voyager'...

    Fourteen Voyager aircraft and a complete support package are being provided to the RAF under a 27 year £10.5bn Private Finance Initiative contract signed with the AirTanker consortium in 2008...
    That's £400m (nearly £28m per aircraft) per year. Bearing in mind the huge reduction in the requirement for air-to-air refuelling (and all the associated costs over and above tanker rental) if we'd had a CVS with Harrier GR9s stationed a few miles off the Libyan coast:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansard 7 Mar 2011
    Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the potential savings to his Department from the decommissioning of aircraft carriers in (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13, (c) 2013-14 and (d) 2014-15. [43901]

    Mr Robathan: Savings from the withdrawal from service of HMS Ark Royal in December 2010 are estimated at £10 million in financial year 2011-12, £25 million in 2012-13, £35 million in 2013-14 and £35 million in 2014-15. Savings from the withdrawal from service of HMS Illustrious in 2014, which is our present planning assumption, are estimated at £5 million in 2013-14 and £30 million in 2014-15.
    Just as well we still have 65 of these useful beasts not gathering dust in an RAF-run retirement home in Rutland. You never know what's just around the corner, do you?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Naval_Gazer; 06-05-11 at 21:54.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansard 7 Mar 2011
    Mr Robathan: Savings from the withdrawal from service of HMS Ark Royal in December 2010 are estimated at £10 million in financial year 2011-12, £25 million in 2012-13, £35 million in 2013-14 and £35 million in 2014-15.
    N.B. A single RAF Typhoon costs £126 million excluding support.

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