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They had WACS in the US forces (Womens Army Corp), don't know if they'd be the same ones
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Subforum: Shore Est
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:11 pm
Pat - In 1919, the Torpedo Branch was responsible for all electrical matters in the RN and remained so until the formation of the Electrical Branch in 1946 (link). As Denn was first and foremost a member of the Torpedo Branch, it is not surprising that he was involved with searchlights and dynamos.
Was there any connection with paravanes? Possibly. Whenever a moored mine was swept at night, the sweeper or paravane-equipped ship responsible had no knowledge that it had been successful. This left swept mines drifting around on the surface ready to catch the next ship unaware, or even the original sweeper when it performed its next 'lap'. That's why mechanical (wire) sweeping was rarely undertaken at night if it could be avoided. There were no such problems with influence sweeping because this detonated thee mines removed them as a threat. It could well be that he was investigating ships, even minesweeping MLs, using searchlights to watch their paravanes or to spot mines ahead of them and enable them to take avoiding action.
In this context, ML would have meant Motor Launch similar to this one:
...or this one (ML110) lost in action during the daring Raid on Zeebrugge in April 1918:
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
Was there any connection with paravanes? Possibly. Whenever a moored mine was swept at night, the sweeper or paravane-equipped ship responsible had no knowledge that it had been successful. This left swept mines drifting around on the surface ready to catch the next ship unaware, or even the original sweeper when it performed its next 'lap'. That's why mechanical (wire) sweeping was rarely undertaken at night if it could be avoided. There were no such problems with influence sweeping because this detonated thee mines removed them as a threat. It could well be that he was investigating ships, even minesweeping MLs, using searchlights to watch their paravanes or to spot mines ahead of them and enable them to take avoiding action.
In this context, ML would have meant Motor Launch similar to this one:

...or this one (ML110) lost in action during the daring Raid on Zeebrugge in April 1918:
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.

Naval_Gazer
- Posts: 2443
- Joined: Jan 19, 2007
- Location: Vernon in spirit
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:28 am
Naval_Gazer & List,
Thanks for that informed reply once again - it never occurred to me that sweeping might be carried out at night. Talk about tempting fate!
Before I move into March, I spotted this in the entry for Thursday, 30th January 1919:
I tracked down the first two abbreviations - W.R.N.S. is the Women's Royal Naval Service and V.A.D. is Voluntary Aid Detachment - but what does the abbreviation W.A.C.S. represent?
Found this on the Wandilla on the shipslist site:
...WANDILLA / FORT ST. GEORGE / CESAREA / ARNO 1912
7,785 gross tons, length 411.3ft x beam 34.1ft, one funnel, two masts, tein screw, speed 16 knots, accommodation for 231-1st, 120-2nd and 72-3rd class passengers. Built 1912 by Beardmore & Co, Glasgow as the WANDILLA for the Adelaide SS Co., Australia, she was converted to a hospital ship in 1914. Returned to her owners in 1918, the extension of Australian railways had made her surplus to requirements and in 1921 she was purchased by Bermuda & West Indies SS Co. and renamed FORT ST. GEORGE. Her cargo holds were replaced by water tanks to supply fresh water to hotels in Bermuda, as there was no natural water supply on the island. Fitted with accommodation for 380-1st and 50-2nd class passengers. In 1924 she collided with White Star Line's OLYMPIC and was out of service for repairs. 1935 sold to Lloyd Triestino, Trieste renamed CESAREA. 1938 renamed ARNO for same owners. In 1940 she was converted to a military hospital ship and on 10th Sep.1942 was sunk by British air attack off Tobruk. [Merchant Fleets, vol.37 by Duncan Haws]...
In May of 1919, I note the Australian newspaper 'The Argus' had this article referencing her.
Can anyone confirm this is the same ship? - I assume by her (new) owners name in 1935, she was flying the Italian flag when sunk in 1942?
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
Thanks for that informed reply once again - it never occurred to me that sweeping might be carried out at night. Talk about tempting fate!
Before I move into March, I spotted this in the entry for Thursday, 30th January 1919:
Quote:
...Wandilla sailed for England with a cargo of W.R.N.S. V.A.D. W.A.C.S. and other miscellaneous ranks and ratings...
I tracked down the first two abbreviations - W.R.N.S. is the Women's Royal Naval Service and V.A.D. is Voluntary Aid Detachment - but what does the abbreviation W.A.C.S. represent?
Found this on the Wandilla on the shipslist site:
Quote:
...WANDILLA / FORT ST. GEORGE / CESAREA / ARNO 1912
7,785 gross tons, length 411.3ft x beam 34.1ft, one funnel, two masts, tein screw, speed 16 knots, accommodation for 231-1st, 120-2nd and 72-3rd class passengers. Built 1912 by Beardmore & Co, Glasgow as the WANDILLA for the Adelaide SS Co., Australia, she was converted to a hospital ship in 1914. Returned to her owners in 1918, the extension of Australian railways had made her surplus to requirements and in 1921 she was purchased by Bermuda & West Indies SS Co. and renamed FORT ST. GEORGE. Her cargo holds were replaced by water tanks to supply fresh water to hotels in Bermuda, as there was no natural water supply on the island. Fitted with accommodation for 380-1st and 50-2nd class passengers. In 1924 she collided with White Star Line's OLYMPIC and was out of service for repairs. 1935 sold to Lloyd Triestino, Trieste renamed CESAREA. 1938 renamed ARNO for same owners. In 1940 she was converted to a military hospital ship and on 10th Sep.1942 was sunk by British air attack off Tobruk. [Merchant Fleets, vol.37 by Duncan Haws]...
In May of 1919, I note the Australian newspaper 'The Argus' had this article referencing her.
Can anyone confirm this is the same ship? - I assume by her (new) owners name in 1935, she was flying the Italian flag when sunk in 1942?
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:36 pm
Hi List,
Found this in the entry for Wednesday 12th March 1919 (Denn is in hospital with flu from the day before):
I think I may have the right guy here - he seems to have been a very able commander during WWI - does anyone know how he won the D.S.O.? We have already made reference to HMS Stuart on page 4 of this thread (see here for the Wikipedia article on her)
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
Found this in the entry for Wednesday 12th March 1919 (Denn is in hospital with flu from the day before):
Quote:
...Leveson Gower in the Stuart and 10 of the new "S" class destroyers arrived from England...
I think I may have the right guy here - he seems to have been a very able commander during WWI - does anyone know how he won the D.S.O.? We have already made reference to HMS Stuart on page 4 of this thread (see here for the Wikipedia article on her)
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:53 pm
sea_mine:
Naval_Gazer & List,
Thanks for that informed reply once again - it never occurred to me that sweeping might be carried out at night. Talk about tempting fate!
Before I move into March, I spotted this in the entry for Thursday, 30th January 1919:
I tracked down the first two abbreviations - W.R.N.S. is the Women's Royal Naval Service and V.A.D. is Voluntary Aid Detachment - but what does the abbreviation W.A.C.S. represent?
Found this on the Wandilla on the shipslist site:
...WANDILLA / FORT ST. GEORGE / CESAREA / ARNO 1912
7,785 gross tons, length 411.3ft x beam 34.1ft, one funnel, two masts, tein screw, speed 16 knots, accommodation for 231-1st, 120-2nd and 72-3rd class passengers. Built 1912 by Beardmore & Co, Glasgow as the WANDILLA for the Adelaide SS Co., Australia, she was converted to a hospital ship in 1914. Returned to her owners in 1918, the extension of Australian railways had made her surplus to requirements and in 1921 she was purchased by Bermuda & West Indies SS Co. and renamed FORT ST. GEORGE. Her cargo holds were replaced by water tanks to supply fresh water to hotels in Bermuda, as there was no natural water supply on the island. Fitted with accommodation for 380-1st and 50-2nd class passengers. In 1924 she collided with White Star Line's OLYMPIC and was out of service for repairs. 1935 sold to Lloyd Triestino, Trieste renamed CESAREA. 1938 renamed ARNO for same owners. In 1940 she was converted to a military hospital ship and on 10th Sep.1942 was sunk by British air attack off Tobruk. [Merchant Fleets, vol.37 by Duncan Haws]...
In May of 1919, I note the Australian newspaper 'The Argus' had this article referencing her.
Can anyone confirm this is the same ship? - I assume by her (new) owners name in 1935, she was flying the Italian flag when sunk in 1942?
Thanks,
Pat
Thanks for that informed reply once again - it never occurred to me that sweeping might be carried out at night. Talk about tempting fate!
Before I move into March, I spotted this in the entry for Thursday, 30th January 1919:
Quote:
...Wandilla sailed for England with a cargo of W.R.N.S. V.A.D. W.A.C.S. and other miscellaneous ranks and ratings...
I tracked down the first two abbreviations - W.R.N.S. is the Women's Royal Naval Service and V.A.D. is Voluntary Aid Detachment - but what does the abbreviation W.A.C.S. represent?
Found this on the Wandilla on the shipslist site:
Quote:
...WANDILLA / FORT ST. GEORGE / CESAREA / ARNO 1912
7,785 gross tons, length 411.3ft x beam 34.1ft, one funnel, two masts, tein screw, speed 16 knots, accommodation for 231-1st, 120-2nd and 72-3rd class passengers. Built 1912 by Beardmore & Co, Glasgow as the WANDILLA for the Adelaide SS Co., Australia, she was converted to a hospital ship in 1914. Returned to her owners in 1918, the extension of Australian railways had made her surplus to requirements and in 1921 she was purchased by Bermuda & West Indies SS Co. and renamed FORT ST. GEORGE. Her cargo holds were replaced by water tanks to supply fresh water to hotels in Bermuda, as there was no natural water supply on the island. Fitted with accommodation for 380-1st and 50-2nd class passengers. In 1924 she collided with White Star Line's OLYMPIC and was out of service for repairs. 1935 sold to Lloyd Triestino, Trieste renamed CESAREA. 1938 renamed ARNO for same owners. In 1940 she was converted to a military hospital ship and on 10th Sep.1942 was sunk by British air attack off Tobruk. [Merchant Fleets, vol.37 by Duncan Haws]...
In May of 1919, I note the Australian newspaper 'The Argus' had this article referencing her.
Can anyone confirm this is the same ship? - I assume by her (new) owners name in 1935, she was flying the Italian flag when sunk in 1942?
Thanks,
Pat
They had WACS in the US forces (Womens Army Corp), don't know if they'd be the same ones
_________________
Sh1t shot, pumping slop.

WreckerL
- Posts: 4730
- Joined: Feb 21, 2009
- Location: Guzz
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:07 pm
Thanks WreckerL,
I did see the American WACS while googleing but discounted them because they were not a British group - but then who is to say the Wandilla did not have members of this American group onboard also.
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
I did see the American WACS while googleing but discounted them because they were not a British group - but then who is to say the Wandilla did not have members of this American group onboard also.
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:35 pm
List,
I had to add this in tonight - it's like a shout across ninety years!
While googling 'Malta' and '1919' I hit upon this site which has an entire page given over to the Russian refugees here.
If you read down the page you will see the story unfold as HMS Marlborough is sent on a rescue mission to bring back the Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna, the mother of murdered Tsar Nicholas II. Note the date the party arrives in Malta - Easter Sunday, 20th April 1919.
Now read this extract from the Diary entry for the same day:
I find this amazing! - a direct tie between Maltese history and the Diary
Regards,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
I had to add this in tonight - it's like a shout across ninety years!
While googling 'Malta' and '1919' I hit upon this site which has an entire page given over to the Russian refugees here.
If you read down the page you will see the story unfold as HMS Marlborough is sent on a rescue mission to bring back the Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna, the mother of murdered Tsar Nicholas II. Note the date the party arrives in Malta - Easter Sunday, 20th April 1919.
Now read this extract from the Diary entry for the same day:
Quote:
...The Marlborough arrived from Constantinople with Russian refugees on board, including the ex Dowager Empress of Russia.
I find this amazing! - a direct tie between Maltese history and the Diary
Regards,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:22 am
Pat - Captain the Honorable William Spencer Leveson-Gower RN was among several officers gazetted for the award of the DSO on 17 Mar 1919 "FOR SERVICES IN DESTROYERS OF THE GRAND FLEET FLOTILLAS BETWEEN THE IST JULY AND 11TH NOVEMBER, 1918" (London Gazette link).
By W.A.C.S., I believe Denn was actually refering to W.A.A.C.s although these had been renamed Q.M.A.A.C.s in Apr 1918 (link). Their old title probably lingered, much as the terms 'W.R.N.S.' and 'Wrens' linger today despite having been abolished in 1993:
Your information about S.S. Wandilla corresponds with that in Roger Jordan's 'World's Merchant Fleets 1939' (Naval Institute Press, Annapolis (1999)) which confirms that she was torpedoed by British aircraft north-west of Tobruk on 10 Sep 1942 as the Italian hospital ship S.S. Arno. I've no idea why a hospital ship should have been targeted unless it was suspected of carrying war goods. There is an interesting allusion to S.S. Armagh, the ship that accompanied S.S. Wandilla to Australia in May 1919, on the website here:
What an intriguing reference you've discovered about the rescue of members of the Russian Royal Family and others by the Royal Navy in Malta (link). This obviously provided an opportunity for some RN personnel to marry into White Russian society:
Vera KRASNOV, aged 24 years, married 28th May 1921 at St.Paul’s Anglican Cathedral, Valletta, Malta, to Leading Telegraphist William Aaron ALBISTON, Royal Navy. Her father was Professor Nicholas Krasnov...
Marie LIKATCHEFF, aged 18 years, the daughter of Leon Likatcheff, married 13th April 1920 at St.Paul’s Anglican Cathedral, Valletta, Malta, to Sub-Lieutenant Frederick Henry GREEN, Royal Navy...
Xenia LOMAKINA, aged 27 years, widow, married 6th June 1920 at St.Paul’s Anglican Cathedral, Valletta, Malta, to Paymaster Lieut-Commander Arthur William Edward BADDELEY, Royal Navy. Her father was Alexander Ivanov, Artist of the Imperial Theatre Petrograd (St. Petersburg)...
Keep on digging into that diary.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
Last edited by Naval_Gazer on Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total
By W.A.C.S., I believe Denn was actually refering to W.A.A.C.s although these had been renamed Q.M.A.A.C.s in Apr 1918 (link). Their old title probably lingered, much as the terms 'W.R.N.S.' and 'Wrens' linger today despite having been abolished in 1993:
National Archives:
Women's (later Queen Mary's) Army Auxiliary Corps (1917-1920)
Women entered the workplace in greater numbers with the outbreak of the First World War. Some were acting out of patriotism, while others seized the opportunity to do work previously denied to them. The newly-formed Ministry of Munitions was one of the main employers to take advantage of women's willingness to work. At the same time, there was great concern that men who could be fighting on the Front were being used for administrative tasks instead.
This became more worrying in 1916 following the heavy losses on the Western Front and new voluntary services were founded as a response to this. One of these was the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps or WAAC... It was renamed the Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps (QMAAC) in April 1918. And when the Royal Air Force (RAF) was created in 1918 a number of WAAC volunteers entered the Women's Royal Air Force (WRAF). The Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps disbanded in September 1921...
Women entered the workplace in greater numbers with the outbreak of the First World War. Some were acting out of patriotism, while others seized the opportunity to do work previously denied to them. The newly-formed Ministry of Munitions was one of the main employers to take advantage of women's willingness to work. At the same time, there was great concern that men who could be fighting on the Front were being used for administrative tasks instead.
This became more worrying in 1916 following the heavy losses on the Western Front and new voluntary services were founded as a response to this. One of these was the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps or WAAC... It was renamed the Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps (QMAAC) in April 1918. And when the Royal Air Force (RAF) was created in 1918 a number of WAAC volunteers entered the Women's Royal Air Force (WRAF). The Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps disbanded in September 1921...

Your information about S.S. Wandilla corresponds with that in Roger Jordan's 'World's Merchant Fleets 1939' (Naval Institute Press, Annapolis (1999)) which confirms that she was torpedoed by British aircraft north-west of Tobruk on 10 Sep 1942 as the Italian hospital ship S.S. Arno. I've no idea why a hospital ship should have been targeted unless it was suspected of carrying war goods. There is an interesting allusion to S.S. Armagh, the ship that accompanied S.S. Wandilla to Australia in May 1919, on the website here:
www.webmatters.net:
Mephisto

Model of the A7V Tank Mephisto
The model of this tank is not quite finished but it represents a tank of this class called Mephisto (Number 506) which was captured by Australian troops of the 26th Battalion AIF (composed mainly of Queenslanders) in 1918 near Villers-Bretonneux. It had been involved in the assault on Villers-Bretonneux and had in fact been lying stranded in a deep crater near Monument Wood but it was only in July 1918 that the front line pushed up enough for its position to fall into Allied hands.
After a period in Britain it was decided to send the tank, as a trophy, to Brisbane in June 1919 (aboard the S S Armagh). It took two of the City Council's steamrollers to tow the tank to the Queensland Museum original site. Mephisto is the only version of the tank still in existence (The one in the German Panzer Museum is in fact a modern replica).

Model of the A7V Tank Mephisto
The model of this tank is not quite finished but it represents a tank of this class called Mephisto (Number 506) which was captured by Australian troops of the 26th Battalion AIF (composed mainly of Queenslanders) in 1918 near Villers-Bretonneux. It had been involved in the assault on Villers-Bretonneux and had in fact been lying stranded in a deep crater near Monument Wood but it was only in July 1918 that the front line pushed up enough for its position to fall into Allied hands.
After a period in Britain it was decided to send the tank, as a trophy, to Brisbane in June 1919 (aboard the S S Armagh). It took two of the City Council's steamrollers to tow the tank to the Queensland Museum original site. Mephisto is the only version of the tank still in existence (The one in the German Panzer Museum is in fact a modern replica).
What an intriguing reference you've discovered about the rescue of members of the Russian Royal Family and others by the Royal Navy in Malta (link). This obviously provided an opportunity for some RN personnel to marry into White Russian society:
Malta Family History - Russian Refugees:
Vera KRASNOV, aged 24 years, married 28th May 1921 at St.Paul’s Anglican Cathedral, Valletta, Malta, to Leading Telegraphist William Aaron ALBISTON, Royal Navy. Her father was Professor Nicholas Krasnov...
Marie LIKATCHEFF, aged 18 years, the daughter of Leon Likatcheff, married 13th April 1920 at St.Paul’s Anglican Cathedral, Valletta, Malta, to Sub-Lieutenant Frederick Henry GREEN, Royal Navy...
Xenia LOMAKINA, aged 27 years, widow, married 6th June 1920 at St.Paul’s Anglican Cathedral, Valletta, Malta, to Paymaster Lieut-Commander Arthur William Edward BADDELEY, Royal Navy. Her father was Alexander Ivanov, Artist of the Imperial Theatre Petrograd (St. Petersburg)...
Keep on digging into that diary.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
Last edited by Naval_Gazer on Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:44 am; edited 1 time in total

Naval_Gazer
- Posts: 2443
- Joined: Jan 19, 2007
- Location: Vernon in spirit
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:05 pm
Naval_Gazer & List,
Once again thanks for joining up the dots. Your reference to the S.S. Armagh sailing to Brisbane with the German tank trophy in June 1919 had me scanning the entries for the entire month last night. No mention of the S.S. Armagh but I did find a couple of other interesting entries.
This one, part of the entry for Thursday 19th June 1919, may be related to the earlier experiment with the searchlight back in February (see p. 6 of this thread):
Another interesting gem from the entry for Wednesday 25th June 1919 reads:
Google gave me these three links for keywords “"HMS Kinross" aegean mine” (Wikipedia has nothing on her)
Can anyone find more on her?
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
Once again thanks for joining up the dots. Your reference to the S.S. Armagh sailing to Brisbane with the German tank trophy in June 1919 had me scanning the entries for the entire month last night. No mention of the S.S. Armagh but I did find a couple of other interesting entries.
This one, part of the entry for Thursday 19th June 1919, may be related to the earlier experiment with the searchlight back in February (see p. 6 of this thread):
Quote:
...and about 1130 we went on board M.L. 166, an oscillator from a paravane is being fitted to her searchlight in order to test its efficiency for counteracting the roll of a ship and so tend to keep the searchlight in the horizontal plane...
Another interesting gem from the entry for Wednesday 25th June 1919 reads:
Quote:
…and returned to hotel by 1900. Found Parsons had returned, his ship the Kinross having been blown up by mines in the Aegean. Luckily he was not on board…
Google gave me these three links for keywords “"HMS Kinross" aegean mine” (Wikipedia has nothing on her)
Can anyone find more on her?
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:45 pm
Pat - Your additional information about the searchlight experiments suggests that Denn was working on a system to stabilise them automatically. This supports my theory that the intention may have been to train them on the beam to monitor paravanes at night. If they were required to shine ahead of the ship, pitch would be the problem instead of roll.
Your first two links about HMS Kinross seem accurate enough but the third is mistaken in describing her as a paddle minesweeper. In fact, she was completed at Fairfield Shipbuilding & Engineering at Govan on the Clyde in 1918 as one of 90 Improved Hunt (Aberdare) Class twin-screwed fleet minesweeping sloops built in 1918/19; these days, the Royal Navy has only eight mine countermeasures vessels in each of two classes. As already stated, HMS Kinross was mined in the Aegean on 16 June 1919. At the time, she was serving with the Mediterranean Fast Minesweeper Flotilla which also included HMS Banchory, HMS Abingdon, HMS Craigie, HMS Widnes, HMS Aberdare, HMS Pontypool and HMS Bagshot.
HMS Kinross and her sister ships HMS Cupar and HMS Penarth were sunk during post-war mine clearance operations (see remarks about the Mine Clearance Service in my post of Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:51 am) but Kinross's Engine Room department suffered particularly grievous losses:
BEAMES, John, Cook, M 7573
BRACEWELL, Robinson, Chief Engine Room Artificer 1c, 270477
BROOKS, Albert H, Stoker 1c, K 23341 (Dev)
FLOOD, Arthur, Stoker Petty Officer, 292870 (Chatham)
JOYCE, Ralph, Stoker 1c, SS 118607 (Portsmouth)
LETHBRIDGE, James A, Stoker 1c, K 14459 (Devonport)
McCORQUODALE, Duncan, Engine Room Artificer 4c, M 33412
MONTE, Emilio, Officer's Steward 2c, 122493
OLIVER, William S, Able Seaman, J 11034 (Chatham)
RICHARDS, Edward A, Stoker 1c, K 14474 (Devonport)
STONE, Henry T, Stoker 1c, K 17232 (Devonport)
WEBBER, Samuel C, Leading Stoker, 183706 (Devonport)
Beames, Bracewell and Monte were buried in the Lancashire Landing Cemetery on the Gallipoli Peninsula in Turkey and McCorquodale was buried in the East Mudros Military Cemetery on Lemnos in Greece. The names of Brooks, Lethbridge, Richards, Stone and Webber are engraved on the Plymouth War Memorial, Flood and Joyce on the Portsmouth War Memorial, and Oliver on the Chatham War Memorial instead so I assume they were either 'Missing Presumed Killed' or buried at sea. I don't have a photo of HMS Kinross but she looked similar to her sister ship, HMS Kendal, shown here:

Aberdare Class minesweeping sloop HMS Kendal in peacetime
On the outbreak of the Second World War, a few surviving coal-burning Aberdare Class ships formed the nucleus of the RN's fleet minesweeper force and were nick-named 'Smokey Joes'.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
Last edited by Naval_Gazer on Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total
Your first two links about HMS Kinross seem accurate enough but the third is mistaken in describing her as a paddle minesweeper. In fact, she was completed at Fairfield Shipbuilding & Engineering at Govan on the Clyde in 1918 as one of 90 Improved Hunt (Aberdare) Class twin-screwed fleet minesweeping sloops built in 1918/19; these days, the Royal Navy has only eight mine countermeasures vessels in each of two classes. As already stated, HMS Kinross was mined in the Aegean on 16 June 1919. At the time, she was serving with the Mediterranean Fast Minesweeper Flotilla which also included HMS Banchory, HMS Abingdon, HMS Craigie, HMS Widnes, HMS Aberdare, HMS Pontypool and HMS Bagshot.
HMS Kinross and her sister ships HMS Cupar and HMS Penarth were sunk during post-war mine clearance operations (see remarks about the Mine Clearance Service in my post of Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:51 am) but Kinross's Engine Room department suffered particularly grievous losses:
BEAMES, John, Cook, M 7573
BRACEWELL, Robinson, Chief Engine Room Artificer 1c, 270477
BROOKS, Albert H, Stoker 1c, K 23341 (Dev)
FLOOD, Arthur, Stoker Petty Officer, 292870 (Chatham)
JOYCE, Ralph, Stoker 1c, SS 118607 (Portsmouth)
LETHBRIDGE, James A, Stoker 1c, K 14459 (Devonport)
McCORQUODALE, Duncan, Engine Room Artificer 4c, M 33412
MONTE, Emilio, Officer's Steward 2c, 122493
OLIVER, William S, Able Seaman, J 11034 (Chatham)
RICHARDS, Edward A, Stoker 1c, K 14474 (Devonport)
STONE, Henry T, Stoker 1c, K 17232 (Devonport)
WEBBER, Samuel C, Leading Stoker, 183706 (Devonport)
Beames, Bracewell and Monte were buried in the Lancashire Landing Cemetery on the Gallipoli Peninsula in Turkey and McCorquodale was buried in the East Mudros Military Cemetery on Lemnos in Greece. The names of Brooks, Lethbridge, Richards, Stone and Webber are engraved on the Plymouth War Memorial, Flood and Joyce on the Portsmouth War Memorial, and Oliver on the Chatham War Memorial instead so I assume they were either 'Missing Presumed Killed' or buried at sea. I don't have a photo of HMS Kinross but she looked similar to her sister ship, HMS Kendal, shown here:

Aberdare Class minesweeping sloop HMS Kendal in peacetime
On the outbreak of the Second World War, a few surviving coal-burning Aberdare Class ships formed the nucleus of the RN's fleet minesweeper force and were nick-named 'Smokey Joes'.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
Last edited by Naval_Gazer on Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total

Naval_Gazer
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Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 10:22 pm
Naval_Gazer & List,
Thanks for the picture of HMS Kendal and the information on the sinking of HMS Kinross. Just wondering why the engine room suffered such a high casualty rate. I would have presumed a moored mine strike would impact on the forward section of a vessel. Is it known if the Kinross was struck by a mine she had swept?
Was she sweeping on her own using the (then) new Oropesa Mk 1 system as you describe on page 4 of this thread? The reason I ask is in reference to the paravane trials Denn carried out on the 24th January 1919 on board the French cruiser Guichen – see page 4 again of this thread:
Twenty five yards does not seem a very safe distance for a swept mine to surface. If the mine which sunk HMS Kinross was indeed swept by her, could it have surfaced along side her and exploded abeam of the engine room? It doesn’t make much difference to the poor guys who perished with her but I am just trying to get an idea of how these brave ships and crews were lost.
Going back to March again, this part of the entry for Tuesday, March 4th 1919 caught my eye:
What type of vessel is a Gunnery School drifter? I assume she either towed a target or provided the gun platform for gunnery school? I also saw other references to this ‘hydraulic dock’ in the diary – is this some form of dry dock with the term 'hydraulic' referring to the gates?
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
Thanks for the picture of HMS Kendal and the information on the sinking of HMS Kinross. Just wondering why the engine room suffered such a high casualty rate. I would have presumed a moored mine strike would impact on the forward section of a vessel. Is it known if the Kinross was struck by a mine she had swept?
Was she sweeping on her own using the (then) new Oropesa Mk 1 system as you describe on page 4 of this thread? The reason I ask is in reference to the paravane trials Denn carried out on the 24th January 1919 on board the French cruiser Guichen – see page 4 again of this thread:
Quote:
As this trial was not very successful a second moored mine was dropped but with a heavier sinker. This was successfully cut, the mine jumping out of the water about 25 yards from the ship's side.
Twenty five yards does not seem a very safe distance for a swept mine to surface. If the mine which sunk HMS Kinross was indeed swept by her, could it have surfaced along side her and exploded abeam of the engine room? It doesn’t make much difference to the poor guys who perished with her but I am just trying to get an idea of how these brave ships and crews were lost.
Going back to March again, this part of the entry for Tuesday, March 4th 1919 caught my eye:
Quote:
…Put some stores on board Gunnery School drifter and then went on to hydraulic dock in her…
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 122
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Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:49 am
Pat - Paravanes, as used by the French cruiser Guichen, were essentially self-protective sweeps streamed from the bows of ordinary warships or merchant ships. Normally, a moored mine would slide along the paravane wire away from the ship's side until its mooring cable became bar taut and the mine's mooring cable was severed by the v-shaped cutter at the end. The mine would then bob to the surface. If the mine's sinker was light enough, then the whole assembly (mine and sinker) might slide along the paravane wire. The Germans sometimes inserted a length of chain or armoured cable between the mine and its mooring wire. This often caused the mine to be fouled in the paravane's end cutter whereupon it had to be cut free somehow.
I have discovered this section in 'Mine and Countermine' by Professor A.M. Low, published by Hutchinson & Son (London & Melbourne) in 1940. It provides more information about the paravanes in which Denn specialised. Note the reference to the oscillator Denn was attempting to apply to the stabilisation of searchlights. Excuse any errors but I have scanned it using OCR to avoid oodles of typing.
As a minesweeper, HMS Kinross would have streamed her sweeps from the 'sweep deck' on her stern. She may have been using the single-ship Oropesa sweep but it is more likely that she was using the 'A' sweep (see quoted excerpt below), i.e. a serrated wire streamed between two ships, because this gave a wider swept path without any gaps (known as holidays) in the middle. Only a few of her engine room personnel would have been on watch at any time but, unlike the seamen, most if not all would still have been below decks. The severity of losses among engine room personnel suggests that the mine struck the ship and exploded adjacent to the stokers' mess or the damage was so catastrophic that few below decks were able to escape before the ship sank. Even shallow draught minesweepers were not immune to moored mines, especially at low water, but bear in mind there is no significant tide in the Mediterranean. Short-tethered mines in shallow water wouldn't slide far along the sweep wire before being cut, especially if moored to a particularly heavy sinker. However, several minesweepers were sunk or suffered serious casualties when they attempted to heave in sweeps fouled by mines and the mines exploded close to the ship. This photo of the Arabis Class minesweeping sloop HMS Myosotis in 1918 shows the possible result:

HMS Myosotis in 1918
This excerpt from 'Swept Channels' by 'Taffrail' (Capt Taprell Dorling DSO, FRHistS, RN) published by Hodder & Stoughton in 1935 is particularly relevant. As before, excuse any errors but I have scanned it using OCR.
I don't know the names of all the other minesweepers sunk around the same time as Kinross (16 June 1919) but the paddle minesweeper HMS Duchess of Richmond was mined off the Dardanelles on 28 June 1919 and the paddle minesweeper HMS Princess Mary II was mined in the Aegean on 2 August 1919.
The Gunnery School drifter would have been a converted fishing vessel used as an auxiliary craft, probably to ferry trainees out to ships for practicing high seas firings. Yes, it could also have been used to tow surface targets. Given time, I could probably identify it but this would involve searching the details of each Admiralty trawler and drifter in my books and there were hundreds of them.
A hydraulic dock, unlike a floating dock, uses hydraulic rams or presses to lift ships out of the water for repair and maintenance. It sounds rather like a modern 'syncrolift'.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
I have discovered this section in 'Mine and Countermine' by Professor A.M. Low, published by Hutchinson & Son (London & Melbourne) in 1940. It provides more information about the paravanes in which Denn specialised. Note the reference to the oscillator Denn was attempting to apply to the stabilisation of searchlights. Excuse any errors but I have scanned it using OCR to avoid oodles of typing.
'Mine and Countermine' pages 187-190:
The paravane was the invention of Lieutenant, now Lieutenant-Commander, Sir C. D. Burney, R.N. In a previous chapter the 'Harvey' torpedo has been described, and it will be remembered that this device was so arranged by means of an 'otter' to stream out at an angle from a fast-moving vessel when towed on a long wire cable. The paravane functioned in very much the same way. It consists of a torpedo-shaped, buoyant body made of welded steel. When towed it stands out from the ship's side as the result of the thrust caused by the motion of the ship through the water. Horizontal rudders keep it at a prearranged depth, which is governed by a hydrostatic valve and a mercury oscillator. The latter prevents it varying in depth more than 4 feet.

Burney Paravane at the Explosion! Museum
of Naval Firepower in Gosport
A ship protected by paravanes carries on in the normal way, a paravane streaming out from the bows on each side. A mine seldom, if ever, strikes the stem of a ship because the stem is always pushing forward a certain body of water, which acts as a cushion, fending off the mine. A mine drops back after this cushion of water has passed and strikes the vessel's side.
But when paravanes are in use the mine rebounds from the cushion and comes into contact with the tow-line of one or other of the paravanes. The mooring cable is carried outwards by this wire towards the paravane itself, where cutting jaws in the head sever the cable. The mine then rises to the surface exactly as when caught and cut by the serrated wire of a normal mine-sweeper.
The interior of the paravane is a little more complicated than the above description suggests, for mechanism is necessary to keep the device at a constant depth. It has two rudders in its tail governed by the hydrostatic valve. The latter depends for its action on a change of pressure above or below the normal, The paravane being required to run at a predetermined depth, a compression corresponding to this depth of water is put on the hydrostatic valve spring. The load due to the compression forces the rudders 'down,' and water pressure on the valve tends to force the rudders up. When the two balance the rudders return to the amidships position.
Even then the paravane would follow a sinusoidal path at excessive speed but for a corrective, and this takes the form of a mercury oscillator which gives it the essential steadiness. The tow-wire of a paravane is attached to the ship at the point of intersection of the stem and heel. This low-down position ensures the mines will not pass under the tow-wire, and the paravane is usually set to run at a depth of 5 feet in excess of the deepest draught of the vessel.
All naval vessels and mine-sweepers are fitted with paravanes as a matter of course; all British merchantmen traversing waters where mines are likely to be encountered now use these protective devices. The merchantmen of most neutrals also use them and it has been asserted that during the Great War no Dutch ship was sunk by mine after the paravane had been adopted. In the present war, Dutch tugs towing paravanes have led ships through mine-fields. Great secrecy was maintained about the device at the time of its invention, and no word of it came to the ears of the German Admiralty until after the war. They suspected that some ingenious device was being employed, being aware of the increasing immunity of ships in areas where their mines had been put down. At the end of the Great War 2,470 ships carried paravanes.
There is another form of paravane which carries an explosive charge in its head. This is intended to be used against submarines, after the style of the 'Harvey' torpedo.
Apart from the observation mine, there are two types with which the paravane cannot deal. They are the floating contact mine and the magnetic mine. The paravane depends entirely for its usefulness on the existence of a mooring cable, and mines which have broken away or any type of floating mine has nothing which the tow-wire can engage. During the 1914 war little use was made of the latter type, for being at the mercy of wind and wave, the floating mine is as great an enemy of the sower as any other. Between 1914 and 1918 Germany possessed a High Seas Fleet and squadrons occasionally sallied out for one purpose or another. Floating mines would have been as dangerous to them as to our ships, and having to the last some hope that the British Grand Fleet might be destroyed, they refrained from adding to their own risks. Today, the possibility of an amount of sea room being needed for a great naval engagement in the North Sea is less likely; Germany has therefore sown a number of floating mines in an attempt to sink any ships that sail the sea and has shown by this action her intention not to come to grips with the British Navy.
Another device which has been employed during the present hostilities to help in the work of sweeping up minefields is the Oropesa float. Many misconceptions have been prevalent about this useful but simple device. Acting in a manner akin to that of the paravane and being torpedo-shaped, it streams out at an angle from a ship towing it on a wire cable. But it remains at a fixed distance on the surface of the water, being used to support a kite-line and the further end of a ship's sweep. Its function is, therefore, that of a 'slip ship' in a pair of mine-sweepers. Having put out an Oropesa float with kite-line and sweep wire attached, a mine-sweeper can then approach the edge of a mine-field. Herself outside the field, she can send the float over the mined area and thus clean up 'swathes' single-handed. The use of the Oropesa float does not allow so wide a strip of mine-field to be dealt with at each journey as when sweepers are working in pairs, but the risk is greatly lessened, for no ship actually enters the field. That a ship can work single-handed adds greatly to the mobility and capacity for work of mine-sweeping flotillas....

The RN's last deployment of an Oropesa float (Jumbo size)
(HMS Ledbury off the Isle of Wight 12 Oct 2005)
...Other countries have had different methods of mine-sweeping from ours from time to time. At the beginning of the Great War France preferred single vessels towing two sweeps which were 'deployed' out from the port and starboard beams respectively by otters regulated for depth by attachment to a large torpedo float, of the Oropesa style. Along each sweep-wire were arranged a series of small mechanical and explosive mooring cutters. The whole arrangement was considerably more complicated than the British, and 'shooting' the sweep, that is, putting it over the vessel's side, was difficult. Moreover, the speed of the mine-sweepers was limited to about 6 or 7 knots, which was much less than the speed of our ships.
When the Americans came into the war, they adopted the French style; finding it cumbersome they adapted it to their own methods and, having simplified the layout of the sweeps, became as efficient at mine-sweeping as were our own flotillas.
The German methods were more akin to the British, but they used a light form of sweep which was towed at about 20 knots. The idea was that the fast mine-sweepers should slip the sweep when they encountered an obstruction, whereupon the slower vessels should come up and deal with the mines.
The Germans were, in fact, in a hurry and were contemptuous of the slower, plodding methods of the British, although copying our general ideas. Having built flotillas of fast sweepers, the authorities thought the problem satisfactorily settled. In actual practice conditions were far from satisfactory. The fast vessels were continually reporting mines and calling for their slower sisters when the obstructions encountered were only rocks, or wrecks. In the end little confidence came to be placed in their reports, the conduct of sweeping operations became lax, and at times almost farcical owing to the contempt felt by the flotilla personnel for the vessels or gear with which they were provided. It must not be imagined that the German mine-sweeping organization broke down. Save for this particular experiment the sweeping service was admirably organized and conducted. Lord Jellicoe spoke in his book, 'The Submarine Peril', of the existence in Germany of 'a well-developed mine-sweeping service ready and constantly practised' at the outbreak of war in 1914.

Burney Paravane at the Explosion! Museum
of Naval Firepower in Gosport
A ship protected by paravanes carries on in the normal way, a paravane streaming out from the bows on each side. A mine seldom, if ever, strikes the stem of a ship because the stem is always pushing forward a certain body of water, which acts as a cushion, fending off the mine. A mine drops back after this cushion of water has passed and strikes the vessel's side.
But when paravanes are in use the mine rebounds from the cushion and comes into contact with the tow-line of one or other of the paravanes. The mooring cable is carried outwards by this wire towards the paravane itself, where cutting jaws in the head sever the cable. The mine then rises to the surface exactly as when caught and cut by the serrated wire of a normal mine-sweeper.
The interior of the paravane is a little more complicated than the above description suggests, for mechanism is necessary to keep the device at a constant depth. It has two rudders in its tail governed by the hydrostatic valve. The latter depends for its action on a change of pressure above or below the normal, The paravane being required to run at a predetermined depth, a compression corresponding to this depth of water is put on the hydrostatic valve spring. The load due to the compression forces the rudders 'down,' and water pressure on the valve tends to force the rudders up. When the two balance the rudders return to the amidships position.
Even then the paravane would follow a sinusoidal path at excessive speed but for a corrective, and this takes the form of a mercury oscillator which gives it the essential steadiness. The tow-wire of a paravane is attached to the ship at the point of intersection of the stem and heel. This low-down position ensures the mines will not pass under the tow-wire, and the paravane is usually set to run at a depth of 5 feet in excess of the deepest draught of the vessel.
All naval vessels and mine-sweepers are fitted with paravanes as a matter of course; all British merchantmen traversing waters where mines are likely to be encountered now use these protective devices. The merchantmen of most neutrals also use them and it has been asserted that during the Great War no Dutch ship was sunk by mine after the paravane had been adopted. In the present war, Dutch tugs towing paravanes have led ships through mine-fields. Great secrecy was maintained about the device at the time of its invention, and no word of it came to the ears of the German Admiralty until after the war. They suspected that some ingenious device was being employed, being aware of the increasing immunity of ships in areas where their mines had been put down. At the end of the Great War 2,470 ships carried paravanes.
There is another form of paravane which carries an explosive charge in its head. This is intended to be used against submarines, after the style of the 'Harvey' torpedo.
Apart from the observation mine, there are two types with which the paravane cannot deal. They are the floating contact mine and the magnetic mine. The paravane depends entirely for its usefulness on the existence of a mooring cable, and mines which have broken away or any type of floating mine has nothing which the tow-wire can engage. During the 1914 war little use was made of the latter type, for being at the mercy of wind and wave, the floating mine is as great an enemy of the sower as any other. Between 1914 and 1918 Germany possessed a High Seas Fleet and squadrons occasionally sallied out for one purpose or another. Floating mines would have been as dangerous to them as to our ships, and having to the last some hope that the British Grand Fleet might be destroyed, they refrained from adding to their own risks. Today, the possibility of an amount of sea room being needed for a great naval engagement in the North Sea is less likely; Germany has therefore sown a number of floating mines in an attempt to sink any ships that sail the sea and has shown by this action her intention not to come to grips with the British Navy.
Another device which has been employed during the present hostilities to help in the work of sweeping up minefields is the Oropesa float. Many misconceptions have been prevalent about this useful but simple device. Acting in a manner akin to that of the paravane and being torpedo-shaped, it streams out at an angle from a ship towing it on a wire cable. But it remains at a fixed distance on the surface of the water, being used to support a kite-line and the further end of a ship's sweep. Its function is, therefore, that of a 'slip ship' in a pair of mine-sweepers. Having put out an Oropesa float with kite-line and sweep wire attached, a mine-sweeper can then approach the edge of a mine-field. Herself outside the field, she can send the float over the mined area and thus clean up 'swathes' single-handed. The use of the Oropesa float does not allow so wide a strip of mine-field to be dealt with at each journey as when sweepers are working in pairs, but the risk is greatly lessened, for no ship actually enters the field. That a ship can work single-handed adds greatly to the mobility and capacity for work of mine-sweeping flotillas....

The RN's last deployment of an Oropesa float (Jumbo size)
(HMS Ledbury off the Isle of Wight 12 Oct 2005)
...Other countries have had different methods of mine-sweeping from ours from time to time. At the beginning of the Great War France preferred single vessels towing two sweeps which were 'deployed' out from the port and starboard beams respectively by otters regulated for depth by attachment to a large torpedo float, of the Oropesa style. Along each sweep-wire were arranged a series of small mechanical and explosive mooring cutters. The whole arrangement was considerably more complicated than the British, and 'shooting' the sweep, that is, putting it over the vessel's side, was difficult. Moreover, the speed of the mine-sweepers was limited to about 6 or 7 knots, which was much less than the speed of our ships.
When the Americans came into the war, they adopted the French style; finding it cumbersome they adapted it to their own methods and, having simplified the layout of the sweeps, became as efficient at mine-sweeping as were our own flotillas.
The German methods were more akin to the British, but they used a light form of sweep which was towed at about 20 knots. The idea was that the fast mine-sweepers should slip the sweep when they encountered an obstruction, whereupon the slower vessels should come up and deal with the mines.
The Germans were, in fact, in a hurry and were contemptuous of the slower, plodding methods of the British, although copying our general ideas. Having built flotillas of fast sweepers, the authorities thought the problem satisfactorily settled. In actual practice conditions were far from satisfactory. The fast vessels were continually reporting mines and calling for their slower sisters when the obstructions encountered were only rocks, or wrecks. In the end little confidence came to be placed in their reports, the conduct of sweeping operations became lax, and at times almost farcical owing to the contempt felt by the flotilla personnel for the vessels or gear with which they were provided. It must not be imagined that the German mine-sweeping organization broke down. Save for this particular experiment the sweeping service was admirably organized and conducted. Lord Jellicoe spoke in his book, 'The Submarine Peril', of the existence in Germany of 'a well-developed mine-sweeping service ready and constantly practised' at the outbreak of war in 1914.
As a minesweeper, HMS Kinross would have streamed her sweeps from the 'sweep deck' on her stern. She may have been using the single-ship Oropesa sweep but it is more likely that she was using the 'A' sweep (see quoted excerpt below), i.e. a serrated wire streamed between two ships, because this gave a wider swept path without any gaps (known as holidays) in the middle. Only a few of her engine room personnel would have been on watch at any time but, unlike the seamen, most if not all would still have been below decks. The severity of losses among engine room personnel suggests that the mine struck the ship and exploded adjacent to the stokers' mess or the damage was so catastrophic that few below decks were able to escape before the ship sank. Even shallow draught minesweepers were not immune to moored mines, especially at low water, but bear in mind there is no significant tide in the Mediterranean. Short-tethered mines in shallow water wouldn't slide far along the sweep wire before being cut, especially if moored to a particularly heavy sinker. However, several minesweepers were sunk or suffered serious casualties when they attempted to heave in sweeps fouled by mines and the mines exploded close to the ship. This photo of the Arabis Class minesweeping sloop HMS Myosotis in 1918 shows the possible result:

HMS Myosotis in 1918
This excerpt from 'Swept Channels' by 'Taffrail' (Capt Taprell Dorling DSO, FRHistS, RN) published by Hodder & Stoughton in 1935 is particularly relevant. As before, excuse any errors but I have scanned it using OCR.
'Swept Channels' pages 329-333:
...The sweeping up of the mines in and about the entrance to the Dardanelles immediately after the Armistice with Turkey [signed 30 October 1918 at Mudros on the island of Lemnos, coincidentally where ERA McCorquodale of HMS Kinross was buried] was a matter of some difficulty. Mudros was used as the storing and fuelling base, and Kephalo [now known as Gökçeada, a Turkish island between Lemnos and the Gallipoli Peninsula], which was closer to the minefields, as the working base. The parent ship was supplied with several kite balloons, manned and handled by the Royal Air Force, to assist in locating mines.
A paddler, or a light-draught sweeper, went out on to the mined area towing a kite balloon at a height of about 350 feet. There were usually two observers in the car of the balloon, one to keep a look out for the small, dark blobs in the clear blue water which represented mines, and the other to speak through the telephone directly into the headphones worn by the officer on the bridge of the sweeper below.
Marking the positions of the mines at the entrance to the Dardanelles was not altogether easy. No official chart of the German or Turkish minefields, which overlapped a considerable portion of the British, was ever forthcoming. There was also a swift current of between four and five knots, while some of the mines were in very shallow water. However, the ship detailed to mark the field approached it until the observer aloft in the balloon reported a mine. The vessel was then conned from the balloon until her bows were within five or six feet of the mine, when she would stop, and let go a small moored buoy known as a 'pellet', roughly the size of a football.
In this way every third or fourth mine would be marked, until the whole line - possibly three miles in length - had been delineated. Returning along the line the sweeper then dropped larger dan buoys with flags at intervals of 150 or 200 yards.
While clearing up the mines with the ordinary 'A' sweep, one vessel kept just inside the line of dan buoys, and the other about 300 yards on her beam. The pellets were swept up with the mines, while two markboats followed close astern sinking the mines by rifle fire the moment their moorings were cut and they bobbed up to the surface.
The process was not so easy as it sounds. The strong current flowing across the line made steering an accurate course at slow speed very difficult. As many as thirty or forty mines might be on the surface at one time, which meant that the risk of sinking, and possibly exploding, them at short range had to be accepted. If they had once been lost sight of they might have drifted away on the tide and have become a menace to shipping.
The whole of the mines moored in deep water off and in the Dardanelles were cleared in this manner, says one account to which I have had access, though it will be remembered that in the Dardanelles operations of 1915 aircraft had been comparatively useless for locating deep-laid mines inside the Straits where the water was more or less opaque compared with that outside.
Mines laid in shallow water near the shore were almost impossible to sweep in the ordinary way because the sweep-wires continually fouled the bottom and carried away. However, some officers located them with the kite-balloon, and then lassoed each mine in turn, which proved quite safe and practicable.
"I put three of my best A.B.s right forward," writes Mr. A. Merton Brown, who was commanding a minesweeper in this area. "Each had hold of a large wire loop arranged as a bight or lasso. Directed by the balloon above, I approached within three or four feet of the mine, when the so-called 'cowboys ' did their job. Having caught the mine, I then went slowly astern and dragged it with its sinker into slightly shallower water. The towing wire was then loosened, the mine came to the surface, and we sank it by rifle fire." Although it was slow work at first, the men soon became very efficient.
The clearance work at the Dardanelles was completed in July, 1919. Over 3,000 mines were removed with a loss of four out of the sixteen sweepers, and a casualty list not exceeding 50 lives. Though the loss of life was regrettable, the result was satisfactory, as many of the mines were laid very shallow and the work was more dangerous than usual because the rise and fall of the tide was no more than six inches. (In home waters, sweeping was carried out only for a certain period on either side of high water, when the rise of the tide gave a definite safety margin if the mines were not showing on the surface at low water.)
"When two or more mines got into our sweeps at the same time," Mr. Brown writes, "they would sometimes foul each other and explode. This parted the sweep-wire. Before it could be hauled in, the sweepers often drifted on to the next line of mines, which of course was unmarked, with fatal results. In one case,when the wire was being hauled in, two mines came up foul of the kite, struck the stern of the ship, and exploded with very sad results. On another occasion my marking boat was actually sinking a mine, when she drifted over it. She had disappeared completely before the smoke and spray of the explosion had drifted away, though many more of her men were saved than we might have expected. Rescue work was always risky as we had to dash in at full speed across the lines with the mines only three feet under the surface. We were lucky to have no casualties."
Just before the regular sweeping operations began, great loss of life was caused by steamers carrying refugees blundering across the minefields before they had been swept and marked. The sweepers had to steam in and warn these ships not to proceed except under escort, but in some cases they struck mines before warning could be given.
They were generally old, unseaworthy ships carrying as many as 1,000 people, mostly old men, women and children. They sank very fast, and rescue work was difficult again because of the number of people in the water, and the damage likely to be done by propellers while the rescuers manoeuvred among them. Though most of them wore lifebelts, numbers succumbed to shock and through becoming panic-stricken and dragging each other under.
By the end of August, 1919, practically all the kite balloons had been destroyed by lightning. They were always pulled down as low as possible at night; but a particularly close flash would strike them and they would drop in a mass of flames just astern of the vessel to which they were moored. Blind sweeping had to be resorted to, and the removal of a small Bulgarian minefield off Dedeagach, north of the entrance to the Dardanelles, was a work of particular danger. However, it was accomplished without loss.
There was more difficulty in September, 1919, when British sweepers were sent to the Bosphorus. Owing to the internal trouble in Russia, no plans were obtainable of the Russian minefields laid in the Black Sea off the Bosphorus, and off the Bulgarian ports of Burgas and Varna. Moreover, the Russian mines were reputed to be especially potent. They had no horns, whiskers or other protuberances - merely an interior device like a saucer containing a chemical liquid which upset and caused them to detonate at the least definite shock or concussion.
But like the mines in every other part of the world, they were swept up - somehow.
A paddler, or a light-draught sweeper, went out on to the mined area towing a kite balloon at a height of about 350 feet. There were usually two observers in the car of the balloon, one to keep a look out for the small, dark blobs in the clear blue water which represented mines, and the other to speak through the telephone directly into the headphones worn by the officer on the bridge of the sweeper below.
Marking the positions of the mines at the entrance to the Dardanelles was not altogether easy. No official chart of the German or Turkish minefields, which overlapped a considerable portion of the British, was ever forthcoming. There was also a swift current of between four and five knots, while some of the mines were in very shallow water. However, the ship detailed to mark the field approached it until the observer aloft in the balloon reported a mine. The vessel was then conned from the balloon until her bows were within five or six feet of the mine, when she would stop, and let go a small moored buoy known as a 'pellet', roughly the size of a football.
In this way every third or fourth mine would be marked, until the whole line - possibly three miles in length - had been delineated. Returning along the line the sweeper then dropped larger dan buoys with flags at intervals of 150 or 200 yards.
While clearing up the mines with the ordinary 'A' sweep, one vessel kept just inside the line of dan buoys, and the other about 300 yards on her beam. The pellets were swept up with the mines, while two markboats followed close astern sinking the mines by rifle fire the moment their moorings were cut and they bobbed up to the surface.
The process was not so easy as it sounds. The strong current flowing across the line made steering an accurate course at slow speed very difficult. As many as thirty or forty mines might be on the surface at one time, which meant that the risk of sinking, and possibly exploding, them at short range had to be accepted. If they had once been lost sight of they might have drifted away on the tide and have become a menace to shipping.
The whole of the mines moored in deep water off and in the Dardanelles were cleared in this manner, says one account to which I have had access, though it will be remembered that in the Dardanelles operations of 1915 aircraft had been comparatively useless for locating deep-laid mines inside the Straits where the water was more or less opaque compared with that outside.
Mines laid in shallow water near the shore were almost impossible to sweep in the ordinary way because the sweep-wires continually fouled the bottom and carried away. However, some officers located them with the kite-balloon, and then lassoed each mine in turn, which proved quite safe and practicable.
"I put three of my best A.B.s right forward," writes Mr. A. Merton Brown, who was commanding a minesweeper in this area. "Each had hold of a large wire loop arranged as a bight or lasso. Directed by the balloon above, I approached within three or four feet of the mine, when the so-called 'cowboys ' did their job. Having caught the mine, I then went slowly astern and dragged it with its sinker into slightly shallower water. The towing wire was then loosened, the mine came to the surface, and we sank it by rifle fire." Although it was slow work at first, the men soon became very efficient.
The clearance work at the Dardanelles was completed in July, 1919. Over 3,000 mines were removed with a loss of four out of the sixteen sweepers, and a casualty list not exceeding 50 lives. Though the loss of life was regrettable, the result was satisfactory, as many of the mines were laid very shallow and the work was more dangerous than usual because the rise and fall of the tide was no more than six inches. (In home waters, sweeping was carried out only for a certain period on either side of high water, when the rise of the tide gave a definite safety margin if the mines were not showing on the surface at low water.)
"When two or more mines got into our sweeps at the same time," Mr. Brown writes, "they would sometimes foul each other and explode. This parted the sweep-wire. Before it could be hauled in, the sweepers often drifted on to the next line of mines, which of course was unmarked, with fatal results. In one case,when the wire was being hauled in, two mines came up foul of the kite, struck the stern of the ship, and exploded with very sad results. On another occasion my marking boat was actually sinking a mine, when she drifted over it. She had disappeared completely before the smoke and spray of the explosion had drifted away, though many more of her men were saved than we might have expected. Rescue work was always risky as we had to dash in at full speed across the lines with the mines only three feet under the surface. We were lucky to have no casualties."
Just before the regular sweeping operations began, great loss of life was caused by steamers carrying refugees blundering across the minefields before they had been swept and marked. The sweepers had to steam in and warn these ships not to proceed except under escort, but in some cases they struck mines before warning could be given.
They were generally old, unseaworthy ships carrying as many as 1,000 people, mostly old men, women and children. They sank very fast, and rescue work was difficult again because of the number of people in the water, and the damage likely to be done by propellers while the rescuers manoeuvred among them. Though most of them wore lifebelts, numbers succumbed to shock and through becoming panic-stricken and dragging each other under.
By the end of August, 1919, practically all the kite balloons had been destroyed by lightning. They were always pulled down as low as possible at night; but a particularly close flash would strike them and they would drop in a mass of flames just astern of the vessel to which they were moored. Blind sweeping had to be resorted to, and the removal of a small Bulgarian minefield off Dedeagach, north of the entrance to the Dardanelles, was a work of particular danger. However, it was accomplished without loss.
There was more difficulty in September, 1919, when British sweepers were sent to the Bosphorus. Owing to the internal trouble in Russia, no plans were obtainable of the Russian minefields laid in the Black Sea off the Bosphorus, and off the Bulgarian ports of Burgas and Varna. Moreover, the Russian mines were reputed to be especially potent. They had no horns, whiskers or other protuberances - merely an interior device like a saucer containing a chemical liquid which upset and caused them to detonate at the least definite shock or concussion.
But like the mines in every other part of the world, they were swept up - somehow.
I don't know the names of all the other minesweepers sunk around the same time as Kinross (16 June 1919) but the paddle minesweeper HMS Duchess of Richmond was mined off the Dardanelles on 28 June 1919 and the paddle minesweeper HMS Princess Mary II was mined in the Aegean on 2 August 1919.
The Gunnery School drifter would have been a converted fishing vessel used as an auxiliary craft, probably to ferry trainees out to ships for practicing high seas firings. Yes, it could also have been used to tow surface targets. Given time, I could probably identify it but this would involve searching the details of each Admiralty trawler and drifter in my books and there were hundreds of them.
A hydraulic dock, unlike a floating dock, uses hydraulic rams or presses to lift ships out of the water for repair and maintenance. It sounds rather like a modern 'syncrolift'.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.

Naval_Gazer
- Posts: 2443
- Joined: Jan 19, 2007
- Location: Vernon in spirit
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:12 am
Naval_Gazer & List,
I appreciate your scanning the two excerpts from the books – both books seem to be well worth getting hold of. Your in-depth explanation of sweeping has now very much improved my understanding and appreciation of this dangerous work. The picture of the RN's last deployment of an Oropesa float in 2005 is very interesting – were they actually performing a mine sweep when this picture was taken – if so, it seems incredible that the mine menace from the two World Wars should obtrude into the 21st century!
Don't worry about the name of the drifter, I just wanted to know what type of vessel she was - as usual you came through on that too
I noticed something interesting in relation to the arrival in Malta of Captain Leveson-Gower as referenced above on Wednesday, 12th March 1919 and the excerpt in reply by Naval_Gazer copied here:
It appears that Denn knew this Officer personally – see this excerpt from the entry for Friday, 21st March 1919:
and on the following Monday, 24th March 1919:
I think it’s a safe bet the two men served together at some point. I downloaded Captain Leveson-Gower’s service record from the National Archives and uploaded it here. As it’s late, I’ll have a closer look at it tomorrow night. In the meantime, if anyone wants to see if they can spot a common ship and dates, I would appreciate your time on it – Denn’s service record has been kindly ‘decoded’ at the top of page 2 of this thread by Naval_Gazer.
More tomorrow,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
I appreciate your scanning the two excerpts from the books – both books seem to be well worth getting hold of. Your in-depth explanation of sweeping has now very much improved my understanding and appreciation of this dangerous work. The picture of the RN's last deployment of an Oropesa float in 2005 is very interesting – were they actually performing a mine sweep when this picture was taken – if so, it seems incredible that the mine menace from the two World Wars should obtrude into the 21st century!
Don't worry about the name of the drifter, I just wanted to know what type of vessel she was - as usual you came through on that too
I noticed something interesting in relation to the arrival in Malta of Captain Leveson-Gower as referenced above on Wednesday, 12th March 1919 and the excerpt in reply by Naval_Gazer copied here:
Quote:
Pat - Captain the Honorable William Spencer Leveson-Gower RN was among several officers gazetted for the award of the DSO on 17 Mar 1919 "FOR SERVICES IN DESTROYERS OF THE GRAND FLEET FLOTILLAS BETWEEN THE IST JULY AND 11TH NOVEMBER, 1918" (London Gazette link).
It appears that Denn knew this Officer personally – see this excerpt from the entry for Friday, 21st March 1919:
Quote:
…Went on board Stuart at 1100 and called on L.G. Ship was alongside Blenheim. Saw L.G. in his cabin, but as he was engaged with Fleet Surgeon I did not stay long. He shook hands and was surprised to see me here. Am to call again on Monday A.M…
and on the following Monday, 24th March 1919:
Quote:
…at 1100 went on board Stuart to call on L.G. Found he was attending a Court Martial so returned to office again…
I think it’s a safe bet the two men served together at some point. I downloaded Captain Leveson-Gower’s service record from the National Archives and uploaded it here. As it’s late, I’ll have a closer look at it tomorrow night. In the meantime, if anyone wants to see if they can spot a common ship and dates, I would appreciate your time on it – Denn’s service record has been kindly ‘decoded’ at the top of page 2 of this thread by Naval_Gazer.
More tomorrow,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:26 pm
Pat - When HMS Ledbury deployed that 'Jumbo' Oropesa float on 12 Oct 2005, she had members of an MCMG (Mine Countermeasures General) course on board and I was privileged to be embarked at the same time. The course was practicing the deployment of the Combined Influence Sweep (CIS) comprising the Minesweeping System (Acoustic) Mk 1 (MSSA 1) and the Magnetic Sweep Mk 14 (MS 14) buoyant loop. Simultaneously, course members on board HMS Middleton were deploying the double Oropesa mechanical sweep, utilising normal-sized Oropesa floats, for the last time. Since that day, all of the minesweeping gear has been removed from Hunt Class MCMVs and they rely solely on their minehunting sonar and ROVs (Remote Operated Vehicles) to detect and prosecute mines. Sandown Class MCMVs were only ever single role minehunters and had no minesweeping equipment installed.
Wikipedia has this entry for Vice Admiral William Spencer Leveson-Gower, 4th Earl Granville KG, GCVO, CB, DSO (11 July 1880–25 June 1953). He was married to Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's elder sister and seems to have had quite a life! From the personal record you have provided, his early naval career comprised:
The 'Special Reports or Service' section of his personal record contains some fascinating details too, including some slaps on the wrist for misdemeanours. However, note that he was "Brought to the attention of C-in-C Mediterranean by RA (Rear Admiral) 2nd in Command for exceptionally fine work performed in embarking Russian troops from Novorissisk [Black Sea] on the night of 26-27th Feb 1920."
Denn had served under Leveson-Gower in the destroyer HMS Comet between 1913 and 1915. Although there was less than a year's difference in their age, there would have been a world of difference between them by virtue of their rank (Captain vs Gunner(T)) and social station so I doubt their paths crossed very often. However, it would have been perfectly natural for Denn to pay a courtesy call on his old CO, especially as they had served together during the dramatic run up to World War One and the first year of conflict.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
Wikipedia has this entry for Vice Admiral William Spencer Leveson-Gower, 4th Earl Granville KG, GCVO, CB, DSO (11 July 1880–25 June 1953). He was married to Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's elder sister and seems to have had quite a life! From the personal record you have provided, his early naval career comprised:
Early Naval Career of Vice Admiral William Spencer Leveson-Gower, 4th Earl Granville KG, GCVO, CB, DSO:
15 Jan 1894: Joined 6,201 ton screw First Rate battleship HMS Britannia (ex-HMS Prince of Wales) used as the training hulk for naval cadets at Dartmouth.

HMS Britannia at Dartmouth
15 Jan 1896: Joined 5,600 ton armoured cruiser HMS Narcissus on China Station.
15 Oct 1896: Promoted Midshipman.
20 Jul 1899: Appointment to sail training ship HMS Dolphin cancelled.
29 Jul 1899: Joined 2,380 ton screw corvette HMS Cleopatra (Training Squadron).
31 Oct 1899: Joined 4,360 ton 2nd Class cruiser HMS Cambrian for sea service.
15 Apr 1900: Promoted Acting Sub Lt.
30 May 1901: Confirmed as Sub Lt.
1 Jun 1901: Joined Portsmouth depot ship HMS Victory for 350 ton destroyer HMS Sylvia.
27 Aug 1901: Joined Portsmouth depot ship HMS Victory for 360 ton destroyer HMS Star.
6 Oct 1901: Joined 1,580 ton torpedo cruiser HMS Scout in Mediterranean.
8 Oct 1901: Promoted Lt.
1 Aug 1902: Joined 14,150 ton battleship HMS Hood in Mediterranean (sunk on 4 Nov 1914 as a blockship in the south entrance of Portland breakwater. I've even dived on her).

HMS Hood
1902: Lent to 1,070 ton torpedo gunboat HMS Harrier for special service in Red Sea.
2 Dec 1903: Joined 9,800 ton armoured cruiser HMS Monmouth.
25 Feb 1904: Joined 7,700 ton 1st Class cruiser HMS Crescent.
16 Jul 1907: Joined Chatham depot ship HMS Hecla for 355 ton destroyer HMS Coquette (mined and sunk off the East Coast on 7 Mar 1919.)
10 Jan 1910: Joined 3,000 ton 3rd Class cruiser HMS Topaze.
3 Jun 1910: Joined Home Fleet depot ship HMS Blake for 550 ton destroyer HMS Liffey in Command.
16 May 1911: Joined HMS Vivid, RN Barracks at Devonport, for 740 ton destroyer HMS Nymphe in Command.
May 1911: Joined HMS Blake, Home Fleet depot ship, for 740 ton destroyer HMS Nymphe in Command.
30 Jun 1913: Promoted Commander.
18 Aug 1913: Joined HMS Vivid, RN Barracks at Devonport, for 747 ton destroyer HMS Comet in Command (torpedoed, some say mined, and sunk in Mediterranean 6 Aug 1918).
Aug 1913: Joined HMS Blake, Home Fleet depot ship, for HMS Comet in Command.

HMS Comet
1915: Joined HMS Dido, depot ship for 10th Destroyer Flotilla, for 1,025 ton destroyer HMS Marmion in Command (sunk 21 Oct 1917 after collision with destroyer HMS Tirade off Lerwick).
28 May 1917: Joined HMS Dido for 1,325 ton destroyer HMS Valkyrie (ex-HMS Malcolm) in Command on commissioning.
29 Jan 1918: Joined 1,800 ton destroyer leader HMS Scott in Command (sunk 15 Aug 1918 in North Sea, probably by UC-17).
30 Jun 1918: Promoted Captain.
12 Oct 1918: Joined 1,673 ton destroyer leader HMS Saumarez in Command.
1 Jan 1919. Joined 1,800 ton destroyer leader HMS Stuart in Command and as Capt 'D' 6th Destroyer Flotilla...

HMS Stuart

HMS Britannia at Dartmouth
15 Jan 1896: Joined 5,600 ton armoured cruiser HMS Narcissus on China Station.
15 Oct 1896: Promoted Midshipman.
20 Jul 1899: Appointment to sail training ship HMS Dolphin cancelled.
29 Jul 1899: Joined 2,380 ton screw corvette HMS Cleopatra (Training Squadron).
31 Oct 1899: Joined 4,360 ton 2nd Class cruiser HMS Cambrian for sea service.
15 Apr 1900: Promoted Acting Sub Lt.
30 May 1901: Confirmed as Sub Lt.
1 Jun 1901: Joined Portsmouth depot ship HMS Victory for 350 ton destroyer HMS Sylvia.
27 Aug 1901: Joined Portsmouth depot ship HMS Victory for 360 ton destroyer HMS Star.
6 Oct 1901: Joined 1,580 ton torpedo cruiser HMS Scout in Mediterranean.
8 Oct 1901: Promoted Lt.
1 Aug 1902: Joined 14,150 ton battleship HMS Hood in Mediterranean (sunk on 4 Nov 1914 as a blockship in the south entrance of Portland breakwater. I've even dived on her).

HMS Hood
1902: Lent to 1,070 ton torpedo gunboat HMS Harrier for special service in Red Sea.
2 Dec 1903: Joined 9,800 ton armoured cruiser HMS Monmouth.
25 Feb 1904: Joined 7,700 ton 1st Class cruiser HMS Crescent.
16 Jul 1907: Joined Chatham depot ship HMS Hecla for 355 ton destroyer HMS Coquette (mined and sunk off the East Coast on 7 Mar 1919.)
10 Jan 1910: Joined 3,000 ton 3rd Class cruiser HMS Topaze.
3 Jun 1910: Joined Home Fleet depot ship HMS Blake for 550 ton destroyer HMS Liffey in Command.
16 May 1911: Joined HMS Vivid, RN Barracks at Devonport, for 740 ton destroyer HMS Nymphe in Command.
May 1911: Joined HMS Blake, Home Fleet depot ship, for 740 ton destroyer HMS Nymphe in Command.
30 Jun 1913: Promoted Commander.
18 Aug 1913: Joined HMS Vivid, RN Barracks at Devonport, for 747 ton destroyer HMS Comet in Command (torpedoed, some say mined, and sunk in Mediterranean 6 Aug 1918).
Aug 1913: Joined HMS Blake, Home Fleet depot ship, for HMS Comet in Command.

HMS Comet
1915: Joined HMS Dido, depot ship for 10th Destroyer Flotilla, for 1,025 ton destroyer HMS Marmion in Command (sunk 21 Oct 1917 after collision with destroyer HMS Tirade off Lerwick).
28 May 1917: Joined HMS Dido for 1,325 ton destroyer HMS Valkyrie (ex-HMS Malcolm) in Command on commissioning.
29 Jan 1918: Joined 1,800 ton destroyer leader HMS Scott in Command (sunk 15 Aug 1918 in North Sea, probably by UC-17).
30 Jun 1918: Promoted Captain.
12 Oct 1918: Joined 1,673 ton destroyer leader HMS Saumarez in Command.
1 Jan 1919. Joined 1,800 ton destroyer leader HMS Stuart in Command and as Capt 'D' 6th Destroyer Flotilla...

HMS Stuart
The 'Special Reports or Service' section of his personal record contains some fascinating details too, including some slaps on the wrist for misdemeanours. However, note that he was "Brought to the attention of C-in-C Mediterranean by RA (Rear Admiral) 2nd in Command for exceptionally fine work performed in embarking Russian troops from Novorissisk [Black Sea] on the night of 26-27th Feb 1920."
Denn had served under Leveson-Gower in the destroyer HMS Comet between 1913 and 1915. Although there was less than a year's difference in their age, there would have been a world of difference between them by virtue of their rank (Captain vs Gunner(T)) and social station so I doubt their paths crossed very often. However, it would have been perfectly natural for Denn to pay a courtesy call on his old CO, especially as they had served together during the dramatic run up to World War One and the first year of conflict.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.

Naval_Gazer
- Posts: 2443
- Joined: Jan 19, 2007
- Location: Vernon in spirit
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:31 am
Naval_Gazer & List,
Many thanks for again decoding the service record of the then Captain Leveson-Gower.
I have uploaded an extract from the document below and was wondering if you or anyone on the list could tell me what the symbol circled in green means?

I also note what appear to be record numbers of some kind of which I have circled a few examples in blue. Are these references to further, more detailed records of particular events? If so, are they available to the public? I am not necessarily interested in the particular examples shown in the screenshot, just in general, as Denn's record has similar notation.
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
Many thanks for again decoding the service record of the then Captain Leveson-Gower.
I have uploaded an extract from the document below and was wondering if you or anyone on the list could tell me what the symbol circled in green means?

I also note what appear to be record numbers of some kind of which I have circled a few examples in blue. Are these references to further, more detailed records of particular events? If so, are they available to the public? I am not necessarily interested in the particular examples shown in the screenshot, just in general, as Denn's record has similar notation.
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 122
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:01 pm
Pat - I've no idea what the symbol meant but the other combinations of letters and numbers were most likely the references of particular letters, memos or other documents. Certainly in more recent years, this would have been in accordance with the naval pack (filing) system, administered by central and departmental registries. Each piece of correspondence bore the abbreviated title of the sending department coupled with the hierarchical number of the relevant subject pack as part of its reference; the other part being its date. As all RN ships and shoreside authorities used the same cataloguing system, this ensured that correspondence was logged in, filed systematically and circulated for the prompt attention of appropriate action and information addressees. It also enabled people to find archived items of correspondence more easily. The RN still uses a form of this system to this day.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.

Naval_Gazer
- Posts: 2443
- Joined: Jan 19, 2007
- Location: Vernon in spirit
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