www.telegraph.co.uk/ne...ngine.html

now this is big news. The F35C is, technially the superior aircraft, and will give the carriers the capability to get 'proper' carrier AWACS, not a converted Merlin (or whatever) such as Hawkeye...

But won't the crabs kick up a fuss now that they lose their STOVL version to replace Harrier, and essentially get another single engined aircraft that needs a long runway, a lot like another capable twin engined aircraft...whats its name...oh yeah, Typhoon!

Good for us, bad for them IMHO, awful for Rolls Royce and yet another blow to British Manufacturing.

As a helpful link, this 'which engine' debate has been going on in the US for a while now, see here www.defensetech.org/ar...04946.html and www.defensetech.org/ar...04880.html
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"It was natural enough: the young cornet or ensign in the Army, when he joined his regiment for the first time, entered a world of rigid formality and discipline, but here was this lad just out of his 'teens with a little floating kingdom all of his own, sent to fight slavers and pirates, chase smugglers, and shepherd pilgrims - and not a senior to turn to for advice, but only his own sense of judgement. Young Ballantyne couldn't follow orders, because hadn't any beyond a roving commission; his crew were all older than he was, but he must live with 'em and mess with 'em, share their hardships and dangers as one of 'em, and make them like and trust him because he was what he was, so that when he said 'Go!' they'd obey, even unto death..."

In an official statement the MoD said: “To maximise the flexibility that the carriers will offer over their service life, they are being built to an adaptable design that can operate both Short Take Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) and Carrier Variant (CV) type aircraft.”

It added that the STOVL or “B” variant of the JSF remains “our prefered solution”.

The only official statement in the whole article. Aircraft are a bit away from my usual realm of expertise, but I was at a conference last week all about the new carriers and it was made very clear that the F35B remains the aircraft of choice, although no official announcement has been made.

I'm not saying I don't believe the MOD are beyond changing their mind, whatever the cost. I wouldn't put anything past them. The whole article does seem to be based on the speculation of 'defence sources' though.
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Anyone who wants to participate in Big Brother, or actually dedicates time to watching it, should automatically be deprived of the right to vote. Nobody that stupid should have a say in how the country's run. The same goes for X-factor.

www.gurkhajustice.org.uk/

Bloody typical they change their minds, at great cost. Then redesign the new carriers at great cost only to get an inferior peice of kit. If they had stayed out of it and left things alone, carriers built, aircraft to suit and all at much the same price
I think that just about sums things up. WANKERS


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Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon...

-- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)

Two main possibilities (and hundreds of other lesser ones).

1: It's an RAF conspiracy chaps ! They are out to screw the Navy and get the carriers cancelled (joke !)

2: It's a wind-up.

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If true, which I really doubt, then there is no real "downside" for the navy. The government have already delayed the carriers which have already be designed to be built or refitted to conventional carriers. The Navy gets "better" jets and can operate UAVs in future.

weird.

.

It's been no big secret for some years now that the RAF would be more than happy to switch some or all of the buy to the miuch more capable F-35C to use them as replacements for the Tornado GR4.

If the MOD opts for the F-35C it's a WIN-WIN situation for BOTH Services.
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“A bureaucrat is the most despicable of men, though he is needed as vultures are needed, but one hardly admires vultures, whom bureaucrats so strangely resemble. I have yet to meet a bureaucrat who was not petty, dull, almost witless, crafty or stupid, an oppressor or a thief, a holder of little authority in which he delights, as a boy delights in possessing a vicious dog. Who can trust such creatures?”

Marcus Tullius Cicero

So what your saying is that the RAF ould prefer F35C...

The Navy would prefer F35C...

The Treasury would prefer F35C because its cheaper

The MoD would prefer F35C because it'll be in service faster


WHY then is F35B still the preferred option FFS??!
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"It was natural enough: the young cornet or ensign in the Army, when he joined his regiment for the first time, entered a world of rigid formality and discipline, but here was this lad just out of his 'teens with a little floating kingdom all of his own, sent to fight slavers and pirates, chase smugglers, and shepherd pilgrims - and not a senior to turn to for advice, but only his own sense of judgement. Young Ballantyne couldn't follow orders, because hadn't any beyond a roving commission; his crew were all older than he was, but he must live with 'em and mess with 'em, share their hardships and dangers as one of 'em, and make them like and trust him because he was what he was, so that when he said 'Go!' they'd obey, even unto death..."

Coz,

Back in the day when I was working with Boeing on the original X planes, they were being touted as going to be much cheaper than contemporary fighters, IIRC, they were bandying about figures like $30 Million a plane, and so, the STVOL version of the X-32/X-35 seemed a good fit to replace the Harrier.

Moving on smartly, the 'cheap' GR-9/AV-8B replacement is now going to cost a rather eyewatering $100+ Million a go and to get it to actually STVOL, they had to halve the original internal weapons bay capacity and reduce fuel load, (It was originally believed they could have STVOL without a weapons load penalty).

Now, why has the RAF now warmed to the F-35C? Simple, they originally thought the GR4's would be replaced under the FOAS programme. Things like stretched Typhoons, UCAVS and suchlike.

Well, being as how FOAS is now dead in the water, the GR4's have no dedicated long range strike aircraft on the horizon to replace them. However, when you look at the specs for the F-35C you have a high supersonic speed, very stealthy strike aircraft with a big internal, (and stealthy), bombload and can also carry over 18,000lbs of stuff if it uses it's wing pylons - and also has a very long range as is the way of carrier based strike planes. It would make an excellent GR4 replacement.


As the old saying goes, "If I wanted to end up here, I wouldn't have started from there".

So there we have it. After a decade of pissing about with the carriers and building in lots of extra expense and delays by buggering about to try and get the strike rates etc they wanted using a less than optimal airframe becuase it was originally thought we were buying a 'cheap' Harrier replacement, we could now end up having another redesign of the carriers, (more expense, more delays), to get them to operate the dedicated carrier version that we should have bought in the first place.
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“A bureaucrat is the most despicable of men, though he is needed as vultures are needed, but one hardly admires vultures, whom bureaucrats so strangely resemble. I have yet to meet a bureaucrat who was not petty, dull, almost witless, crafty or stupid, an oppressor or a thief, a holder of little authority in which he delights, as a boy delights in possessing a vicious dog. Who can trust such creatures?”

Marcus Tullius Cicero

If true, this is potentially seismic news!

The principle advantage of the F-35B over the C is that it would enable RN CAGs to be reinforced more readily by RAF sqns; cat/trap skills are a lot more of a perishable skill than STOVL.

For pure RAF ops, the F-35C is not such a bad deal as it gas a pretty healthy short field performance in its own right. Moreover, it has always been the best performer in most respects out of all the F-35 variants. Therefore, there have always been a fair number of pro-C types in my Service.

If it saves money than that’s an added advantage although I suspect those economies may be eaten up by having to modify the CVF design now to accept a steam generator or the somewhat immature EMALS (which even the USN are considering dropping from their first Ford Class CVN21 to allow the technology to mature).

However, I don’t think there’s much chance of an E-2C buy as there’s simply no money. In addition, the Hawkeye is far from a stellar performer over land and its sensor in some regards is inferior to those of the SKASAC, even in the new E-2D variant.

In terms of numbers bought, if there is to be a reduction, I suspect it’ll mean the F-35C will only go to the RN.

However, I would suggest all this debate is fairly pointless before the next election and the ensuing SDR.

Regards,
MM
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For good or for ill, air mastery is today the supreme expression of military power and fleets and armies, however vital and important, must accept a subordinate rank.

— Prime Minister Winston Churchill

Weren't the Phroggies touting around the idea of a joint UK/French E-2 Squadron at one time to reduce costs along the idea of the shared NATO E-3's? Moneywise, couldn't we always buy some cheap ex-USN ones until their is some more pocket money to be spent?
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“A bureaucrat is the most despicable of men, though he is needed as vultures are needed, but one hardly admires vultures, whom bureaucrats so strangely resemble. I have yet to meet a bureaucrat who was not petty, dull, almost witless, crafty or stupid, an oppressor or a thief, a holder of little authority in which he delights, as a boy delights in possessing a vicious dog. Who can trust such creatures?”

Marcus Tullius Cicero

From my armchair, excellent news - the fundamental error of sticking with VSTOL for the carriers when it was only an historical aberration in the first place driven by the miniscule size of the Invincible class is at last corrected and cross-decking with the US comes back as an operational possibility, plus increased range/payload/saunter time instead of having to come back to other because the VSTOL has to cart all that extra ironmongery round the sky. Solution to Crab participation is to scrub round this aspect of the RAF and give it to the RN who do all things more efficiently. After much costly delay and muddled thinking we shall (but they will be even later) get real carriers and real aircraft.
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Edmund Burke: 'Wars may be deferred .. but they cannot be wholly avoided .. to purchase present quiet, at the price of future security, is .. a cowardice of the most base and degrading nature."

We lost a lot of expertise when we stopped doing that back in the day.
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“A bureaucrat is the most despicable of men, though he is needed as vultures are needed, but one hardly admires vultures, whom bureaucrats so strangely resemble. I have yet to meet a bureaucrat who was not petty, dull, almost witless, crafty or stupid, an oppressor or a thief, a holder of little authority in which he delights, as a boy delights in possessing a vicious dog. Who can trust such creatures?”

Marcus Tullius Cicero

I hadn't heard that option touted although I've always seen jointly operated French and UK carriers as a possibility.

Regarding used E-2Cs, you really wouldn't want to go down that route. Sensor capability is awful overland. The E-2D upgrade would be the minimum I would suggest is credible, although even that would be a retrograde step from ASAC in some respects. That's why 849 was allocated a more important job than the E-2s (which frankly did very little) during OIF.

Regards,
MM
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For good or for ill, air mastery is today the supreme expression of military power and fleets and armies, however vital and important, must accept a subordinate rank.

— Prime Minister Winston Churchill

I know when I play BF2 the F35B is facking crap, no chance against the SU
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3 Years to do..... not that Im counting

The French were floating the idea about the same time they were trying to interest us in 150 Rafale M's at a very handsome price.

Well, the Other option would be the V-22 with the paletized TOSS… kills a few birds, AEW and COD role.



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“A bureaucrat is the most despicable of men, though he is needed as vultures are needed, but one hardly admires vultures, whom bureaucrats so strangely resemble. I have yet to meet a bureaucrat who was not petty, dull, almost witless, crafty or stupid, an oppressor or a thief, a holder of little authority in which he delights, as a boy delights in possessing a vicious dog. Who can trust such creatures?”

Marcus Tullius Cicero