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Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:44 pm
Thanks for that Naval_Gazer,
I presume then that these documents are internal and will never be made public?
You recall I am interested in tracking down Denn's friend referred to by Denn throughout the Diary as 'Oswald'. We know he was R.N.V.R. from this extract from the entry for Tuesday, 25th February when they both go to visit the submarine M1:
I had presumed all along that Oswald was this guy's first name until I had a quick look through all the blank pages last night (last entry is Sunday, 10th August). All the pages beyond this date are blank EXCEPT a single line entry on p. 366 in the Memoranda section, entered in pencil, which reads:
Nothing at the National Archives fitted using 'George' so I tried 'Gilbert' and got this guy. As soon as the pdf opened my eye caught the address:

You can also see the Malta tie up with:
Another one in the bag
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
I presume then that these documents are internal and will never be made public?
You recall I am interested in tracking down Denn's friend referred to by Denn throughout the Diary as 'Oswald'. We know he was R.N.V.R. from this extract from the entry for Tuesday, 25th February when they both go to visit the submarine M1:
Quote:
...At 1100 went on board M.1 lying off Egmont and was shown around by her engineer. Some sub. Oswald came with me and was also to have a look around but as he is R.N.V.R. he had to receive permission beforehand...
I had presumed all along that Oswald was this guy's first name until I had a quick look through all the blank pages last night (last entry is Sunday, 10th August). All the pages beyond this date are blank EXCEPT a single line entry on p. 366 in the Memoranda section, entered in pencil, which reads:
Quote:
G. Oswald 97 Osborne Road Newcastle
Nothing at the National Archives fitted using 'George' so I tried 'Gilbert' and got this guy. As soon as the pdf opened my eye caught the address:

You can also see the Malta tie up with:
Quote:
...12.9.18 Egmont for P.V. duties...
Another one in the bag
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:01 pm
List,
While browsing the month of April 1919 last night, I hit upon what appears to have been a very busy day for ship arrivals and departures with the entry for Tuesday, 8th April. The same day also has other interesting references - I'll start from the top and work down the page:
...Oswald paid a visit to Vickers Stores, Marsa...
Does anyone know anything about Vickers involvement in Malta around this time? I assume manufacturing by this company was confined to the UK and the term 'Stores' was just that - parts and repairs?
Further down the page for the same day:
Wikipedia only has this on HMS Parthian - can anyone enlighten us further?
Then at the bottom there is a real plethora of traffic listed:
Wikipedia has this on HMS Emperor of India and I also found these great images of her - note especially the last one at the bottom of the page of her entering (?) Grande Harbour. It's a bit the worst for wear but it's still a fantastic photograph.
Regards,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
While browsing the month of April 1919 last night, I hit upon what appears to have been a very busy day for ship arrivals and departures with the entry for Tuesday, 8th April. The same day also has other interesting references - I'll start from the top and work down the page:
Quote:
...Oswald paid a visit to Vickers Stores, Marsa...
Does anyone know anything about Vickers involvement in Malta around this time? I assume manufacturing by this company was confined to the UK and the term 'Stores' was just that - parts and repairs?
Further down the page for the same day:
Quote:
...Had a long talk with Denton about old ships and his experiences. He is staying at Imperial awaiting passage to Parthian, destroyer, as her No. 1...
Wikipedia only has this on HMS Parthian - can anyone enlighten us further?
Then at the bottom there is a real plethora of traffic listed:
Quote:
...Emperor of India sailed for Constantinople, [insert: she had arrived in Malta the previous Friday, 4th April from England] also Rowan. Osiris left for Marseilles and Sentinel for England. Forward arrived from Black Sea...
Wikipedia has this on HMS Emperor of India and I also found these great images of her - note especially the last one at the bottom of the page of her entering (?) Grande Harbour. It's a bit the worst for wear but it's still a fantastic photograph.
Regards,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:55 am
Pat - Old Admiralty packs (files) were 'weeded' of old papers over time and then destroyed when no longer required. In some cases they were sent to the National Archives but only when considered absolutely essential 'for the record'. In my personal experience, thousands of historic files have been destroyed in recent years owing to the reorganisation and slimming down of MOD departments and other service organisations combined with moves to new locations affording less space for their storage in the vain hope of achieving totally paperless offices in the computer age. The expense and administrative effort required in recording the transfer of each bit of paper, often classified, just wouldn't have been cost-effective.
Good detective work in tracking down Oswald's status. He was obviously an experienced ML (Motor Launch) RNVR officer according to his service record and I doubt the Navy List would provide any additional information of value.
Denn's diary entry suggests that Vickers may have been responsible for local CLS (Contractor Logistic Support) in Malta. Alternatively, the 'Vickers Store' may simply have been the generic name given to the Paravane Store as Vickers actually manufactured the paravanes and their fittings. However, things were even more complicated (and political) than that. This exchange was published in Hansard in Dec 1920:

Merchant ship fitted with Vickers 'M' type paravane 1920
On delving further, I found this excerpt from 'The Paravane Adventure' by L. Cope Cornford (Hodder & Stoughton (1919)) describing the background of Vickers' involvement with the Burney paravane:
I wonder whether Lt Cdr Doug Taylor RN, the inventor of the Harrier ski-jump, experienced the same aggravation. Incidentally, Sir George White founded the Bristol Aeroplane Company. In 1956, its major operations were split into Bristol Aircraft and Bristol Aero Engines which eventually became part of Rolls-Royce. In 1959, Bristol Aircraft merged with several major British aircraft companies, including Vickers (Aviation) Ltd, to form the British Aircraft Corporation (BAC). BAC went on to become a founding component of the nationalised British Aerospace, now BAE Systems. The BAC works were in Filton, about four miles north of Bristol city centre. BAE Systems still operate from Filton and this is where, coincidentally, the MOD's Defence Procurement Agency (DPA) and the Defence Logistics Organisation (DLO) collocated in 1997 at a new complex called Abbey Wood (often referred to as 'Shabby Wood'). In 2007, these organisations merged to form Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S). Talk about 'full circle'.
The source quoted above also rendered this glowing tribute to Burney's paravane provided by the Master of HM Hospital Ship Goorkha, despite having been mined off Malta on 10 October 1917, as previously mentioned in your post of Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:17 pm. Note that 'otters' were modified forms of paravane for use by merchant vessels.
The HMS Parthian in question was a 1,000 ton Admiralty 'M' Class destroyer built at Scotts in Greenock, launched on 3 Jul 1916 and completed in Sep 1916. She was sold to the Slough Trading Company on 8 Nov 1921 and subsequently broken up in Germany.
HMS Rowan: 1,495 ton Armed Boarding Steamer launched 1909. Served 14/11/1914 to 15/6/1920. Reportedly based at Lemnos and spent much of her time cruising between Lemnos, Bulgaria and Greece. Came under attack from aircraft whilst collecting troops from one of the Gallipoli beaches (see this entry in Great War Forum).
HMS Osiris: 1,000 ton 'M' Class destroyer built by Palmer of Jarrow and launched 26 Sep 1916. Sold to Ward of Rainham on 9 May 1921.
HMS Sentinal (ex-HMS Inchkeith): 2,895 ton scout cruiser launched at Vickers 19 Apr 1904 and sold to Young 18 Jan 1923. Arrived Sunderland 20 Jun 1923 after stranding.
HMS Forward: 2,850 ton scout cruiser launched at Cammell Laird 27 Aug 1904. Sold to Fryer 27 Jul 1921.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
Good detective work in tracking down Oswald's status. He was obviously an experienced ML (Motor Launch) RNVR officer according to his service record and I doubt the Navy List would provide any additional information of value.
Denn's diary entry suggests that Vickers may have been responsible for local CLS (Contractor Logistic Support) in Malta. Alternatively, the 'Vickers Store' may simply have been the generic name given to the Paravane Store as Vickers actually manufactured the paravanes and their fittings. However, things were even more complicated (and political) than that. This exchange was published in Hansard in Dec 1920:
Hansard vol 135 c1461W 1461W 2 Dec 1920:
PARAVANE CLAIM
Sir W. JOHNSON-HICKS asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the remarks of the Attorney-General in the paravane case before the Royal Commission on Claims in regard to the sum paid to Commodore (sic) Burney; and whether he will make a full statement as to the work done by that gentleman and the negotiations with Messrs. Vickers and the sum paid to him?
Sir J. CRAIG Yes, Sir. The Royal Commission on Awards to Inventors in their recommendation attributed the main credit for the invention and development of the paravane to Lieutenant-Commander Burney and outlined the work that had been done by this officer. No money has been or will be paid to Lieutenant-Commander Burney out of Naval Funds in respect of the use of the invention in His Majesty's Navy. In accordance with the practice adopted in many other cases he was allowed to exploit some of the rights, other than in this respect. When such permission was given he was free to make his own arrangements with Messrs. Vickers as regards any apparatus supplied to merchant ships.
Sir W. JOHNSON-HICKS asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether his attention has been called to the remarks of the Attorney-General in the paravane case before the Royal Commission on Claims in regard to the sum paid to Commodore (sic) Burney; and whether he will make a full statement as to the work done by that gentleman and the negotiations with Messrs. Vickers and the sum paid to him?
Sir J. CRAIG Yes, Sir. The Royal Commission on Awards to Inventors in their recommendation attributed the main credit for the invention and development of the paravane to Lieutenant-Commander Burney and outlined the work that had been done by this officer. No money has been or will be paid to Lieutenant-Commander Burney out of Naval Funds in respect of the use of the invention in His Majesty's Navy. In accordance with the practice adopted in many other cases he was allowed to exploit some of the rights, other than in this respect. When such permission was given he was free to make his own arrangements with Messrs. Vickers as regards any apparatus supplied to merchant ships.

Merchant ship fitted with Vickers 'M' type paravane 1920
On delving further, I found this excerpt from 'The Paravane Adventure' by L. Cope Cornford (Hodder & Stoughton (1919)) describing the background of Vickers' involvement with the Burney paravane:
The Paravane Adventure:
...In February 1915, Lieutenant Burney advised the Admiralty that the Paravane inventions should be protected by patents. Accordingly, the Admiralty Patent Agent obtained secret patents in Lieutenant Burney's name. These were lodged in June 1915. In accordance with the King's Regulations, Burney assigned the patents to the Admiralty, under a deed of assignment, so that the Paravane patents became the property of the Admiralty, and the granting of an award to the inventor rested in the discretion of their Lordships. Lieutenant Burney then laid before the Admiralty, in writing, his view of the position. Foreseeing the necessity of forming an immense commercial organisation for the manufacture and fitting of the Paravane, which would be furnished to H.M. ships, the ships of the Allied Navies and the merchant shipping of Great Britain and of the Allies, Burney submitted that two courses were open to H.M. Government: (1) That H.M. Government should take out patents in Allied countries, and should use the royalties thereby accruing as appropriations in aid of the Navy Estimates; (2) If that course was rejected, that Lieutenant Burney should be allowed to take out patents in Allied countries or to sell to them outright the drawings of the invention. Neither then nor at any subsequent time did Burney ask for an award to be granted to him by the Admiralty in respect of the fitting with the Paravane of H.M. ships; and subsequently Burney informed the Admiralty that he would accept nothing on that account.
It will be observed that the first proposal was that the Government should work the patents and take what profit resulted therefrom; and that the second and alternative proposal was that Lieutenant Burney should conduct the whole enterprise in terms to be decided by the Admiralty. Their Lordships elected to choose the alternative. In a letter dated May 17th, 1916, the Admiralty authorised Lieutenant Burney to take out patents in any part of the world, at his own expense and for his own benefit, or to sell the drawings outright; with regard to Paravanes and gear manufactured at the expense of the Admiralty and supplied by them to foreign Governments, the Admiralty were to charge a royalty, a proportion of which would be paid to Lieutenant Burney; and with regard to the use of the apparatus by the British Navy, the Admiralty were to consider the granting of an award to Lieutenant Burney. In that letter, therefore, the Admiralty instructed Burney, a lieutenant whose pay was about £250 a year, and who was already charged with as much work as he could well perform, to organise a system of international manufacture upon a scale requiring an initial capital expenditure of at least a million sterling.
Burney accepted the enterprise and at once began to execute their Lordships' instructions. He concluded the agreements with France and Russia, during June and July 1916. All this time he was also engaged in his work at the Paravane department at Portsmouth. In August 1916, Burney proposed to Sir George White, of Bristol, that Sir George White should take over the whole financial and commercial side of the enterprise. Sir George White had helped Burney to conduct his experiments with aeroplanes, during which Burney had acquired the knowledge and experience enabling him to devise the Paravane, and upon which Sir George White had expended some £10,000. Sir George White accepted Burney's proposal, and concluded an agreement with Burney under which Sir George White was to recover his initial expenditure of some £10,000 from the first payments received from foreign countries, and was to pay Burney a proportion of the subsequent profits received.
On 30th August, Burney received a letter from the Admiralty in which their Lordships, altering the arrangements they had authorised Burney to make with foreign countries, precluded the charging of royalties. As Sir George White was now in possession of Burney's rights in the matter, Burney referred the Admiralty to Sir George White. The immediate effect of the Admiralty letter was of course to prevent Sir George White from proceeding with the business. After an interval, on October 30th, 1916, Burney received a letter from the Admiralty which, in fact, cancelled their letter of May 17th, 1916, in which Burney was instructed to conduct the whole enterprise at his own expense and (excepting in respect of the British Navy) for his own profit. The Admiralty forbade the charging of royalties to foreign countries as regards the fitting of naval vessels, and the terms and conditions of the fitting of merchant ships were to be submitted to the Admiralty for approval.
Sir George White represented to the Admiralty that if he was forbidden either to charge royalties or to receive a fixed sum in payment, he would be deprived of the means of raising the capital upon which he relied both to make up his initial expenditure already incurred, and to start the business of manufacture. These representations were made in vain. On November 22nd, 1916, Sir George White died suddenly, and his son, Sir G. Stanley White, continued the negotiations with the Admiralty. Sir G. S. White offered to begin the work of manufacture upon condition that he received a sum in compensation for the rights withdrawn by the Admiralty. Their Lordships delaying their reply, Sir G. S. White, unable for lack of capital to build and to equip a factory, decided to transfer his rights to a firm possessing the requisite resources. He therefore assigned his rights to Messrs. Vickers, Ltd. Sir G. S. White had concluded his agreement with Messrs. Vickers, when he received a letter from the Admiralty, omitting any suggestion as to finance, but urging him to arrange to equip merchant vessels with the utmost despatch. It was now the end of December 1916. So far, the commercial side of the enterprise had been entrusted to Burney upon conditions which, with the help of a private firm, made the enterprise possible; the conditions were then so altered as to make the enterprise impossible; and Messrs. Vickers had replaced Sir G. S. White.
Messrs. Vickers, soon afterwards, at the end of January 1917, received from the Admiralty a definite order for the supply of 4,000 Otters. It thus became possible, for the first time since May 1916, after the lapse of eight months, to begin the manufacture and supply of protector Paravanes on a large scale. Here it should be stated that, by reason of the alteration by the Admiralty of the original terms laid down by the Admiralty, both Lieutenant Burney and Sir G. S. White were deprived of the monetary profits which would have accrued to them under the terms originally formulated by the Admiralty. In a letter, dated February 23rd, 1917, the Admiralty requested Lieutenant Burney to furnish their Lordships with information as to the amounts privately expended on experimental work, such information being required in connection with the question of an award to be granted for the use of the Paravane in H.M. Naval Service. Lieutenant Burney, under date February 27th, 1917, replied that he desired to state that he had never asked for, and did not wish to receive, any monetary award whatever for the use of any of his inventions by the British Naval Service.
The statements which appeared in the Press, that Lieutenant Burney had received an award of £30,000, were false. Lieutenant Burney received nothing from the Admiralty. And in a clause of the agreement concluded by Lieutenant Burney with Messrs. Vickers, it was stipulated that Burney should receive no portion whatever of any profits, direct or indirect, which Messrs. Vickers might make out of the manufacture or supply of any of the Paravane apparatus ordered by the British Admiralty for the use of H.M. ships. The expenditure upon Paravanes supplied or approved to be supplied to H.M. ships and the ships of the United States Navy in Home waters, was over four millions sterling. If the usual royalty of ten per cent, was charged on that sum, and if on that royalty the inventor received twenty-five per cent, he would receive £100,000...
It will be observed that the first proposal was that the Government should work the patents and take what profit resulted therefrom; and that the second and alternative proposal was that Lieutenant Burney should conduct the whole enterprise in terms to be decided by the Admiralty. Their Lordships elected to choose the alternative. In a letter dated May 17th, 1916, the Admiralty authorised Lieutenant Burney to take out patents in any part of the world, at his own expense and for his own benefit, or to sell the drawings outright; with regard to Paravanes and gear manufactured at the expense of the Admiralty and supplied by them to foreign Governments, the Admiralty were to charge a royalty, a proportion of which would be paid to Lieutenant Burney; and with regard to the use of the apparatus by the British Navy, the Admiralty were to consider the granting of an award to Lieutenant Burney. In that letter, therefore, the Admiralty instructed Burney, a lieutenant whose pay was about £250 a year, and who was already charged with as much work as he could well perform, to organise a system of international manufacture upon a scale requiring an initial capital expenditure of at least a million sterling.
Burney accepted the enterprise and at once began to execute their Lordships' instructions. He concluded the agreements with France and Russia, during June and July 1916. All this time he was also engaged in his work at the Paravane department at Portsmouth. In August 1916, Burney proposed to Sir George White, of Bristol, that Sir George White should take over the whole financial and commercial side of the enterprise. Sir George White had helped Burney to conduct his experiments with aeroplanes, during which Burney had acquired the knowledge and experience enabling him to devise the Paravane, and upon which Sir George White had expended some £10,000. Sir George White accepted Burney's proposal, and concluded an agreement with Burney under which Sir George White was to recover his initial expenditure of some £10,000 from the first payments received from foreign countries, and was to pay Burney a proportion of the subsequent profits received.
On 30th August, Burney received a letter from the Admiralty in which their Lordships, altering the arrangements they had authorised Burney to make with foreign countries, precluded the charging of royalties. As Sir George White was now in possession of Burney's rights in the matter, Burney referred the Admiralty to Sir George White. The immediate effect of the Admiralty letter was of course to prevent Sir George White from proceeding with the business. After an interval, on October 30th, 1916, Burney received a letter from the Admiralty which, in fact, cancelled their letter of May 17th, 1916, in which Burney was instructed to conduct the whole enterprise at his own expense and (excepting in respect of the British Navy) for his own profit. The Admiralty forbade the charging of royalties to foreign countries as regards the fitting of naval vessels, and the terms and conditions of the fitting of merchant ships were to be submitted to the Admiralty for approval.
Sir George White represented to the Admiralty that if he was forbidden either to charge royalties or to receive a fixed sum in payment, he would be deprived of the means of raising the capital upon which he relied both to make up his initial expenditure already incurred, and to start the business of manufacture. These representations were made in vain. On November 22nd, 1916, Sir George White died suddenly, and his son, Sir G. Stanley White, continued the negotiations with the Admiralty. Sir G. S. White offered to begin the work of manufacture upon condition that he received a sum in compensation for the rights withdrawn by the Admiralty. Their Lordships delaying their reply, Sir G. S. White, unable for lack of capital to build and to equip a factory, decided to transfer his rights to a firm possessing the requisite resources. He therefore assigned his rights to Messrs. Vickers, Ltd. Sir G. S. White had concluded his agreement with Messrs. Vickers, when he received a letter from the Admiralty, omitting any suggestion as to finance, but urging him to arrange to equip merchant vessels with the utmost despatch. It was now the end of December 1916. So far, the commercial side of the enterprise had been entrusted to Burney upon conditions which, with the help of a private firm, made the enterprise possible; the conditions were then so altered as to make the enterprise impossible; and Messrs. Vickers had replaced Sir G. S. White.
Messrs. Vickers, soon afterwards, at the end of January 1917, received from the Admiralty a definite order for the supply of 4,000 Otters. It thus became possible, for the first time since May 1916, after the lapse of eight months, to begin the manufacture and supply of protector Paravanes on a large scale. Here it should be stated that, by reason of the alteration by the Admiralty of the original terms laid down by the Admiralty, both Lieutenant Burney and Sir G. S. White were deprived of the monetary profits which would have accrued to them under the terms originally formulated by the Admiralty. In a letter, dated February 23rd, 1917, the Admiralty requested Lieutenant Burney to furnish their Lordships with information as to the amounts privately expended on experimental work, such information being required in connection with the question of an award to be granted for the use of the Paravane in H.M. Naval Service. Lieutenant Burney, under date February 27th, 1917, replied that he desired to state that he had never asked for, and did not wish to receive, any monetary award whatever for the use of any of his inventions by the British Naval Service.
The statements which appeared in the Press, that Lieutenant Burney had received an award of £30,000, were false. Lieutenant Burney received nothing from the Admiralty. And in a clause of the agreement concluded by Lieutenant Burney with Messrs. Vickers, it was stipulated that Burney should receive no portion whatever of any profits, direct or indirect, which Messrs. Vickers might make out of the manufacture or supply of any of the Paravane apparatus ordered by the British Admiralty for the use of H.M. ships. The expenditure upon Paravanes supplied or approved to be supplied to H.M. ships and the ships of the United States Navy in Home waters, was over four millions sterling. If the usual royalty of ten per cent, was charged on that sum, and if on that royalty the inventor received twenty-five per cent, he would receive £100,000...
I wonder whether Lt Cdr Doug Taylor RN, the inventor of the Harrier ski-jump, experienced the same aggravation. Incidentally, Sir George White founded the Bristol Aeroplane Company. In 1956, its major operations were split into Bristol Aircraft and Bristol Aero Engines which eventually became part of Rolls-Royce. In 1959, Bristol Aircraft merged with several major British aircraft companies, including Vickers (Aviation) Ltd, to form the British Aircraft Corporation (BAC). BAC went on to become a founding component of the nationalised British Aerospace, now BAE Systems. The BAC works were in Filton, about four miles north of Bristol city centre. BAE Systems still operate from Filton and this is where, coincidentally, the MOD's Defence Procurement Agency (DPA) and the Defence Logistics Organisation (DLO) collocated in 1997 at a new complex called Abbey Wood (often referred to as 'Shabby Wood'). In 2007, these organisations merged to form Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S). Talk about 'full circle'.
The source quoted above also rendered this glowing tribute to Burney's paravane provided by the Master of HM Hospital Ship Goorkha, despite having been mined off Malta on 10 October 1917, as previously mentioned in your post of Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:17 pm. Note that 'otters' were modified forms of paravane for use by merchant vessels.
The Paravane Adventure:
H.M. Hospital Ship 'Goorkha'
Salonika, 19th November 1918.
The Managers,
Union Castle Mail S.S. Co., Ltd.,
3-4 Fenchurch St., London,
Gentlemen, — I would like to pay a tribute to the efficiency of the Otter Gear as fitted to the Goorkha. The last minefield I passed through in daylight, the Otters cut adrift three enemy moored mines (in 15 minutes) which came to the surface just abaft the bridge. In dangerous areas, especially such as some of the pro-enemy waters we have to traverse just now, the Otters are more than ever necessary, and look-outs are placed in Nos. 5 and 6 boats to watch the water surface above the Otters. The patients (who are able) are kept on deck with lifebelts on, and the crew also, as far as possible. The tremendous tearing sound and vibration caused by the mine mooring wire rushing along the Otter towing wire, does not leave many of the crew in their quarters forward, and is felt quite strongly on the forecastle head.
In the event of getting among mines, I see nothing for it but to steer a straight course, full speed if possible, as slowing down too much, or stopping, brings the Otters to the surface where they are useless, and turning under helm renders the stern liable to strike a mine, which the Otters have cut adrift. The very hard steel cutting teeth in the jaws of the Otter show little or no signs after cutting mine wires, although in one case, portions of the wire were found in the jaws, and in another a length of wire and the depth nipper were brought on board with the Otter. In another instance, the port Otter refused to work and came alongside ship, when it was found on hoisting it out of the water, that though it had cut the mine adrift, it had fouled the wire with some anchoring arrangement attached. The wire was cut with an axe, and the Otter freed.
In most cases, the mines cut adrift by the Goorkha's Otters have very shortly afterwards been sunk by gunfire. In the Mediterranean from 28th June to 17th November, the ship steamed 1594 hours, during which time the Otters were in use 361 hours.
Yours obediently,
(Signed) John D. Whitton.
Salonika, 19th November 1918.
The Managers,
Union Castle Mail S.S. Co., Ltd.,
3-4 Fenchurch St., London,
Gentlemen, — I would like to pay a tribute to the efficiency of the Otter Gear as fitted to the Goorkha. The last minefield I passed through in daylight, the Otters cut adrift three enemy moored mines (in 15 minutes) which came to the surface just abaft the bridge. In dangerous areas, especially such as some of the pro-enemy waters we have to traverse just now, the Otters are more than ever necessary, and look-outs are placed in Nos. 5 and 6 boats to watch the water surface above the Otters. The patients (who are able) are kept on deck with lifebelts on, and the crew also, as far as possible. The tremendous tearing sound and vibration caused by the mine mooring wire rushing along the Otter towing wire, does not leave many of the crew in their quarters forward, and is felt quite strongly on the forecastle head.
In the event of getting among mines, I see nothing for it but to steer a straight course, full speed if possible, as slowing down too much, or stopping, brings the Otters to the surface where they are useless, and turning under helm renders the stern liable to strike a mine, which the Otters have cut adrift. The very hard steel cutting teeth in the jaws of the Otter show little or no signs after cutting mine wires, although in one case, portions of the wire were found in the jaws, and in another a length of wire and the depth nipper were brought on board with the Otter. In another instance, the port Otter refused to work and came alongside ship, when it was found on hoisting it out of the water, that though it had cut the mine adrift, it had fouled the wire with some anchoring arrangement attached. The wire was cut with an axe, and the Otter freed.
In most cases, the mines cut adrift by the Goorkha's Otters have very shortly afterwards been sunk by gunfire. In the Mediterranean from 28th June to 17th November, the ship steamed 1594 hours, during which time the Otters were in use 361 hours.
Yours obediently,
(Signed) John D. Whitton.
The HMS Parthian in question was a 1,000 ton Admiralty 'M' Class destroyer built at Scotts in Greenock, launched on 3 Jul 1916 and completed in Sep 1916. She was sold to the Slough Trading Company on 8 Nov 1921 and subsequently broken up in Germany.
HMS Rowan: 1,495 ton Armed Boarding Steamer launched 1909. Served 14/11/1914 to 15/6/1920. Reportedly based at Lemnos and spent much of her time cruising between Lemnos, Bulgaria and Greece. Came under attack from aircraft whilst collecting troops from one of the Gallipoli beaches (see this entry in Great War Forum).
HMS Osiris: 1,000 ton 'M' Class destroyer built by Palmer of Jarrow and launched 26 Sep 1916. Sold to Ward of Rainham on 9 May 1921.
HMS Sentinal (ex-HMS Inchkeith): 2,895 ton scout cruiser launched at Vickers 19 Apr 1904 and sold to Young 18 Jan 1923. Arrived Sunderland 20 Jun 1923 after stranding.
HMS Forward: 2,850 ton scout cruiser launched at Cammell Laird 27 Aug 1904. Sold to Fryer 27 Jul 1921.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.

Naval_Gazer
- Posts: 1927
- Joined: Jan 19, 2007
- Location: Vernon in spirit
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:29 pm
Naval_Gazer & List,
Thanks for the detailed description of Vickers and the story behind the production of paravanes and otters. How did otters differ from paravanes exactly? I presume otters had to be easier to handle for merchant ships.
Is it known if HMHS Goorkha was fitted with either device when she was mined on 10th October 1917? If Vickers only begun production in January of the same year, would she have been given priority for fitting out with one or other of these devices as a hospital ship?
On a different tack, I note from the entry for Friday, 28th March 1919:
I found this and this on Frank Henry Mason (1876-1965), whom I am almost sure is the guy Denn is referring to. Does anyone know of any Mason works painted in Malta about this time?
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
Thanks for the detailed description of Vickers and the story behind the production of paravanes and otters. How did otters differ from paravanes exactly? I presume otters had to be easier to handle for merchant ships.
Is it known if HMHS Goorkha was fitted with either device when she was mined on 10th October 1917? If Vickers only begun production in January of the same year, would she have been given priority for fitting out with one or other of these devices as a hospital ship?
On a different tack, I note from the entry for Friday, 28th March 1919:
Quote:
...Had a visit from Mason, the water colour artist, who is out here to paint local scenes, naval, for the War Museum. He held rank of Lieut. R.N.V.R....
I found this and this on Frank Henry Mason (1876-1965), whom I am almost sure is the guy Denn is referring to. Does anyone know of any Mason works painted in Malta about this time?
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:15 pm
Pat - In answer to your latest questions regarding Denn's mention of HMHS Goorkha and mine protection otters (plus some background on his tie-in with Vickers and the likely nature of his work), I can only quote from the same source I used before (link):
...Early in 1917, then, while the Paravane department at Portsmouth was supplying vessels of war with the mine-protector Paravane gear, Messrs. Vickers in London began to equip the merchant ships of the world with the Otter.
What must now be done was to manufacture the Otter and its elaborate gear, and to equip with it the British and Allied merchant services. As ships could not be withdrawn from the sea for the purpose, it was necessary to fit them when they were under repair or during their stay in port between voyages. In order that the towing wire should be attached to the forefoot of the vessel, at the point where the bow joins the keel, it was necessary to fit every ship with a shoe, or a saddle-plate or a clump, to which were attached the towing wires of the two Otters. The requisite fitting varied with the particular build of the ship. The type of Otter-fitting required also varied with the particular type of ship, and the variation was practically covered within seven or eight standard types. Ships under construction were, of course, adapted to the Otter as they were built.
In some ships it was necessary to extend the stem itself to take the saddle-plate or sliding shoe; to others, in which the stem was much cut away, a clump was fitted; to others, a large saddle-plate was fitted. Three-strand towing wire of special design was provided. For dropping and weighing the Otter, the fittings again varied according to the type of ship. If she had no suitable derrick or davit a gallows crane was fitted. An inhaul wire, an easing-out wire, a tripping wire and a tripping hook were provided.
It was clearly necessary to catch each vessel as she entered port and to fit her there and then. For that purpose, Otters and gear must be ready in the port, with a skilled staff to fit them. When the Otter was fitted to the ship it was necessary to teach the crew how to use it...
..The Paravane fitted to merchant vessels was called the Otter, for convenience in distinction...
...Some fifty firms were employed in manufacturing Otters and gear under Messrs. Vickers. At Messrs. Vickers' head office, the Otter staff numbered about 180; about 60 men were employed in fitting, about 50 men in testing, and about 40 men in inspection work. Ships were fitted at 32 ports in Great Britain : Blackwall, King's Lynn, Newhaven, Southampton, Plymouth, Falmouth, Cardiff, Barry, Newport, Avonmouth, Swansea, Milford Haven, Liverpool, Manchester, Barrow, Workington, Belfast, Dublin, Queenstown, Govan, Dundee, Aberdeen, Leith, Bo'ness, Newcastle, Blyth, Middlesboro', Sunderland, West Hartlepool, Hull, Goole and Grimsby. There were four stations in the Mediterranean : Marseilles, Malta, Alexandria and Port Said...
...The average number of ships fitted per week for the six months preceding the Armistice was 50. The average number of ships per week repaired was 120, and inspected, 280. The number of Otters manufactured was over 17,000.
The first merchant vessel was equipped with the Otter in April 1917. When the Armistice was concluded, about 3,000 ships had been fitted with the Otter...
...Before the Otter was fitted to merchant ships eighteen vessels a month were being lost by mine. After the Otter was fitted the losses dropped to three or four, and in some months none, and no merchant ship fitted with the Otter was lost by mine. Thirty four British merchant ships were known to have been saved, and thirteen not certainly known, forty-seven in all, to which must be added a large number not reported by the master. Foreign merchant ships are not included...
...OTTERS
The following is a list of the occasions on which mines have been cut by merchant ships fitted with Otter gear, and the fact has been reported officially. Definite evidence of the mine having been cut existed except in the cases where marked with an asterisk.
DATE. SHIP. TONNAGE. POSITION. REMARKS.
...8 Nov 1918. GOORKHA (6,335) Off Kavale. Cut mine in daylight. Mine seen on surface alongside.
14 Nov 1918. GOORKHA (6,335) Dardanelles, Cut mine and passed through minefield.
14 Nov 1918. GOORKHA (6,335) Dardanelles. Do.
14 Nov 1918. GOORKHA (6,335) Dardanelles. Do...
From the information above, it seems fairly reasonable to assume that HMHS Goorkha had not yet been fitted with paravanes when she was mined in Oct 1917.
With regard to Frank Henry Mason, there is a little more information about him here:
Again, it seems fairly reasonable to assume that he was the RNVR officer mentioned in Denn's diary.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
'The Paravane Adventure' by L. Cope Cornford:
...Early in 1917, then, while the Paravane department at Portsmouth was supplying vessels of war with the mine-protector Paravane gear, Messrs. Vickers in London began to equip the merchant ships of the world with the Otter.
What must now be done was to manufacture the Otter and its elaborate gear, and to equip with it the British and Allied merchant services. As ships could not be withdrawn from the sea for the purpose, it was necessary to fit them when they were under repair or during their stay in port between voyages. In order that the towing wire should be attached to the forefoot of the vessel, at the point where the bow joins the keel, it was necessary to fit every ship with a shoe, or a saddle-plate or a clump, to which were attached the towing wires of the two Otters. The requisite fitting varied with the particular build of the ship. The type of Otter-fitting required also varied with the particular type of ship, and the variation was practically covered within seven or eight standard types. Ships under construction were, of course, adapted to the Otter as they were built.
In some ships it was necessary to extend the stem itself to take the saddle-plate or sliding shoe; to others, in which the stem was much cut away, a clump was fitted; to others, a large saddle-plate was fitted. Three-strand towing wire of special design was provided. For dropping and weighing the Otter, the fittings again varied according to the type of ship. If she had no suitable derrick or davit a gallows crane was fitted. An inhaul wire, an easing-out wire, a tripping wire and a tripping hook were provided.
It was clearly necessary to catch each vessel as she entered port and to fit her there and then. For that purpose, Otters and gear must be ready in the port, with a skilled staff to fit them. When the Otter was fitted to the ship it was necessary to teach the crew how to use it...
..The Paravane fitted to merchant vessels was called the Otter, for convenience in distinction...
...Some fifty firms were employed in manufacturing Otters and gear under Messrs. Vickers. At Messrs. Vickers' head office, the Otter staff numbered about 180; about 60 men were employed in fitting, about 50 men in testing, and about 40 men in inspection work. Ships were fitted at 32 ports in Great Britain : Blackwall, King's Lynn, Newhaven, Southampton, Plymouth, Falmouth, Cardiff, Barry, Newport, Avonmouth, Swansea, Milford Haven, Liverpool, Manchester, Barrow, Workington, Belfast, Dublin, Queenstown, Govan, Dundee, Aberdeen, Leith, Bo'ness, Newcastle, Blyth, Middlesboro', Sunderland, West Hartlepool, Hull, Goole and Grimsby. There were four stations in the Mediterranean : Marseilles, Malta, Alexandria and Port Said...
...The average number of ships fitted per week for the six months preceding the Armistice was 50. The average number of ships per week repaired was 120, and inspected, 280. The number of Otters manufactured was over 17,000.
The first merchant vessel was equipped with the Otter in April 1917. When the Armistice was concluded, about 3,000 ships had been fitted with the Otter...
...Before the Otter was fitted to merchant ships eighteen vessels a month were being lost by mine. After the Otter was fitted the losses dropped to three or four, and in some months none, and no merchant ship fitted with the Otter was lost by mine. Thirty four British merchant ships were known to have been saved, and thirteen not certainly known, forty-seven in all, to which must be added a large number not reported by the master. Foreign merchant ships are not included...
...OTTERS
The following is a list of the occasions on which mines have been cut by merchant ships fitted with Otter gear, and the fact has been reported officially. Definite evidence of the mine having been cut existed except in the cases where marked with an asterisk.
DATE. SHIP. TONNAGE. POSITION. REMARKS.
...8 Nov 1918. GOORKHA (6,335) Off Kavale. Cut mine in daylight. Mine seen on surface alongside.
14 Nov 1918. GOORKHA (6,335) Dardanelles, Cut mine and passed through minefield.
14 Nov 1918. GOORKHA (6,335) Dardanelles. Do.
14 Nov 1918. GOORKHA (6,335) Dardanelles. Do...
From the information above, it seems fairly reasonable to assume that HMHS Goorkha had not yet been fitted with paravanes when she was mined in Oct 1917.
With regard to Frank Henry Mason, there is a little more information about him here:
Bear Alley Blogspot by Steve Holland:
...Shortly after war was declared in 1914 Mason was commissioned as a Lieutenant in the RNVR. His initial assignment involved patrolling the North Sea and English Channel followed by a posting to the Mediterranean and Suez Canal zone. Many of the sketches he made whilst on active service were subsequently made up into finished works that were purchased by the Imperial War Museum. After being demobbed in 1919 Mason resumed his career in Scarborough...
Again, it seems fairly reasonable to assume that he was the RNVR officer mentioned in Denn's diary.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.

Naval_Gazer
- Posts: 1927
- Joined: Jan 19, 2007
- Location: Vernon in spirit
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:23 am
Re Frank Henry MASON (1876-1965)
Three of his Malta paintings, including “Saint Paul’s Bay 1919” are listed at the specialist art collector’s catalogue here:
web.artprice.com/ps/ar...page=10000
I regret that no visuals of the Malta paintings are available there (a subscriber only site) but the date above does seem to match the Denn Diary encounter with him.
Bob
Three of his Malta paintings, including “Saint Paul’s Bay 1919” are listed at the specialist art collector’s catalogue here:
web.artprice.com/ps/ar...page=10000
I regret that no visuals of the Malta paintings are available there (a subscriber only site) but the date above does seem to match the Denn Diary encounter with him.
Bob

BreathingOutOnTheWayUp
- Posts: 932
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- Location: Somewhere on Portsea Island
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:51 am
Breathing - Cheers for the extra reference to Mason.
Pat - Remember this bit of my post of Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:22 am?:
Here is the tank in Australia (link):

A7V Tank 'Mephisto' at Queensland Museum, Brisbane
Much closer to home, this photo is among several taken at Bovington Tank Museum's 'Tankfest' in 2009 (link):

Replica of German A7V Tank at Bovington Tank Museum
Coincidentally, RR had a thread about WWI tanks at Bovington Tank Museum not so long ago (link). Among other nuggets, it yielded the little-known fact that British tanks originally came under the Admiralty and were called 'HM Land Ships'.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
Pat - Remember this bit of my post of Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:22 am?:
www.webmatters.net:
Mephisto

Model of the A7V Tank Mephisto
The model of this tank is not quite finished but it represents a tank of this class called Mephisto (Number 506) which was captured by Australian troops of the 26th Battalion AIF (composed mainly of Queenslanders) in 1918 near Villers-Bretonneux. It had been involved in the assault on Villers-Bretonneux and had in fact been lying stranded in a deep crater near Monument Wood but it was only in July 1918 that the front line pushed up enough for its position to fall into Allied hands.
After a period in Britain it was decided to send the tank, as a trophy, to Brisbane in June 1919 (aboard the S S Armagh). It took two of the City Council's steamrollers to tow the tank to the Queensland Museum original site. Mephisto is the only version of the tank still in existence (The one in the German Panzer Museum is in fact a modern replica).

Model of the A7V Tank Mephisto
The model of this tank is not quite finished but it represents a tank of this class called Mephisto (Number 506) which was captured by Australian troops of the 26th Battalion AIF (composed mainly of Queenslanders) in 1918 near Villers-Bretonneux. It had been involved in the assault on Villers-Bretonneux and had in fact been lying stranded in a deep crater near Monument Wood but it was only in July 1918 that the front line pushed up enough for its position to fall into Allied hands.
After a period in Britain it was decided to send the tank, as a trophy, to Brisbane in June 1919 (aboard the S S Armagh). It took two of the City Council's steamrollers to tow the tank to the Queensland Museum original site. Mephisto is the only version of the tank still in existence (The one in the German Panzer Museum is in fact a modern replica).
Here is the tank in Australia (link):
A7V Tank 'Mephisto' at Queensland Museum, Brisbane
Much closer to home, this photo is among several taken at Bovington Tank Museum's 'Tankfest' in 2009 (link):

Replica of German A7V Tank at Bovington Tank Museum
Coincidentally, RR had a thread about WWI tanks at Bovington Tank Museum not so long ago (link). Among other nuggets, it yielded the little-known fact that British tanks originally came under the Admiralty and were called 'HM Land Ships'.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.

Naval_Gazer
- Posts: 1927
- Joined: Jan 19, 2007
- Location: Vernon in spirit
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:07 pm
Naval_Gazer & Bob,
Thank you both for the additional information on Mason - it would be great to get a look at some of his work done in Malta during 1919. If anyone else on the list has any additional leads, I would be most appreciative.
Naval_Gazer - great picture of the A7V Tank 'Mephisto' at Queensland Museum. I have never been to Bovington, but it's one of those places on my list to visit, particularly as I am sure they have an example of the German Sturmgeschütz III (Stug III) self propelled gun.
I have researched the U.S. 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment's Normandy campaign extensively and this vehicle was deployed against the 505th in several locations during the 33 days the Regiment was in Normandy.
It is often mistakenly said that American Airborne forces had little or no armour opposition - this is most certainly not true in the case of the 82nd Airborne Division and specifically the 505th PIR. For those interested, you can view some of my research over on the Battlebus forum - see the links on page 3 of this thread.
I digress; here is another reference to the Russian refugees:
Cannot find a great deal on this surname - there apparently was a General Trepoff who, as far as I can make out was premier of Russia before the 1917 revolution and resigned on Jan 9th 1917. Does anyone know if these two men are one and the same?
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
Thank you both for the additional information on Mason - it would be great to get a look at some of his work done in Malta during 1919. If anyone else on the list has any additional leads, I would be most appreciative.
Naval_Gazer - great picture of the A7V Tank 'Mephisto' at Queensland Museum. I have never been to Bovington, but it's one of those places on my list to visit, particularly as I am sure they have an example of the German Sturmgeschütz III (Stug III) self propelled gun.
I have researched the U.S. 505th Parachute Infantry Regiment's Normandy campaign extensively and this vehicle was deployed against the 505th in several locations during the 33 days the Regiment was in Normandy.
It is often mistakenly said that American Airborne forces had little or no armour opposition - this is most certainly not true in the case of the 82nd Airborne Division and specifically the 505th PIR. For those interested, you can view some of my research over on the Battlebus forum - see the links on page 3 of this thread.
I digress; here is another reference to the Russian refugees:
Quote:
...Got into conversation with General Trepoff and his wife and another young person whilst at tea. The younger woman and Mrs General spoke English fairly well. They wanted to get away to the Riviera or Switzerland for the climate as the old people had pneumonia...
Cannot find a great deal on this surname - there apparently was a General Trepoff who, as far as I can make out was premier of Russia before the 1917 revolution and resigned on Jan 9th 1917. Does anyone know if these two men are one and the same?
Thanks,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:48 pm
Pat - It's a pity that the internet doesn't contain more paintings by Mason of the RN at Malta in 1919 or information about Trepoff. It would be fascinating if Denn met the same Gen Trepoff involved so deeply in the intrigues at the Tsar's court leading up to the Bolshevik Revolution.
As a student of naval minewarfare and diving, I was so taken by 'The Paravane Adventure' by L. Cope Cornford (Hodder & Stoughton 1919) that I acquired a copy. Although the text is available online, I wanted to see the illustrations and I have scanned a few of them for display here to help set Denn's work in context:



Note that the wire from the 'gallows head' was merely an inhaul used for recovering the otter, not the towing wire which led from the stem.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
As a student of naval minewarfare and diving, I was so taken by 'The Paravane Adventure' by L. Cope Cornford (Hodder & Stoughton 1919) that I acquired a copy. Although the text is available online, I wanted to see the illustrations and I have scanned a few of them for display here to help set Denn's work in context:




Note that the wire from the 'gallows head' was merely an inhaul used for recovering the otter, not the towing wire which led from the stem.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.

Naval_Gazer
- Posts: 1927
- Joined: Jan 19, 2007
- Location: Vernon in spirit
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:41 pm
Naval_Gazer & List,
Hope you don't mind, but I downloaded your otter image and labelled it in order to confirm my understanding of the description in the caption. I would very much appreciate if you can confirm if my labels are correct?
I am also trying to picture the otter's orientation when it's being towed - I have arrowed in blue my estimate - is this correct? If so, can I stick my neck out even further and ask is this then the port side otter?

Thanks once again for your time.
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
Hope you don't mind, but I downloaded your otter image and labelled it in order to confirm my understanding of the description in the caption. I would very much appreciate if you can confirm if my labels are correct?
I am also trying to picture the otter's orientation when it's being towed - I have arrowed in blue my estimate - is this correct? If so, can I stick my neck out even further and ask is this then the port side otter?

Thanks once again for your time.
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:14 pm
Pat - The illustrations below suggest that your assumptions are correct.


Incidentally, the 'tadpole' to which you referred in your post of Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:49 pm is the depressor shown ahead of the two paravanes in the second illustration. It is described in 'The Paravane Adventure' as keeping "the two paravane wires down to a depth as near as possible to the depth of the Paravanes themselves, thus preventing a mine from passing uncaught between the Paravanes. Paravane and tadpole wires make a complete crinoline." In more recent times, it has been called a 'kite'.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.



Incidentally, the 'tadpole' to which you referred in your post of Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:49 pm is the depressor shown ahead of the two paravanes in the second illustration. It is described in 'The Paravane Adventure' as keeping "the two paravane wires down to a depth as near as possible to the depth of the Paravanes themselves, thus preventing a mine from passing uncaught between the Paravanes. Paravane and tadpole wires make a complete crinoline." In more recent times, it has been called a 'kite'.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.

Naval_Gazer
- Posts: 1927
- Joined: Jan 19, 2007
- Location: Vernon in spirit
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:13 pm
Naval_Gazer & List,
Ah! I suspected that was the otter/paravane orientation under tow from the placement of the tow cable - thanks for that - these illustrations are also from 'The Paravane Adventure' I presume?
I should have quoted the entry date for the above reference to General Trepoff - it was Wednesday, 30th April. I had a quick look again at the Russian Refugees page on the Malta Family History site and discovered a reference to the S.S. Bermudian arriving Malta on 25th April 1919 with a load of Russian and English refugees – note the reference to the non existence of a passengers list – might not mean anything of course, as I am sure her departure was hurried.
I checked the Diary for Friday, April 25th and found Denn feeling a bit under the weather by nightfall but no mention of any Russians arriving. Then on turning the page to the following day Saturday, 26th April, we find Denn sick in bed at the Imperial "feeling too rotten for words" - However he does find the strength to make this entry in the Diary:
Not sure what or who the last reference is to but I am becoming more and more convinced that this General Trepoff is the ex Russian Premier. I assume the General’s son-in-law is one and the same guy Denn refers to in the entry for Monday, 5th May – see page 4 of this thread here
I have still not found much by way of searching the web for "General Trepoff" - I was about to sign up on what looked like a Russian history forum tonight until a second browser window popped up offering all sorts of stuff for sale ... very cheaply. I'll dig out my old set of Encyclopaedia Britannica tomorrow night and see if I can find out anymore without having to take a second wife
Regards,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
Ah! I suspected that was the otter/paravane orientation under tow from the placement of the tow cable - thanks for that - these illustrations are also from 'The Paravane Adventure' I presume?
I should have quoted the entry date for the above reference to General Trepoff - it was Wednesday, 30th April. I had a quick look again at the Russian Refugees page on the Malta Family History site and discovered a reference to the S.S. Bermudian arriving Malta on 25th April 1919 with a load of Russian and English refugees – note the reference to the non existence of a passengers list – might not mean anything of course, as I am sure her departure was hurried.
I checked the Diary for Friday, April 25th and found Denn feeling a bit under the weather by nightfall but no mention of any Russians arriving. Then on turning the page to the following day Saturday, 26th April, we find Denn sick in bed at the Imperial "feeling too rotten for words" - However he does find the strength to make this entry in the Diary:
Quote:
...A number of Russians joined the hotel, amongst them being a General Trepoff with his wife, daughter, 2 gran-children and son-in-law, a prince Demidoff also a Siamese Johnny...
Not sure what or who the last reference is to but I am becoming more and more convinced that this General Trepoff is the ex Russian Premier. I assume the General’s son-in-law is one and the same guy Denn refers to in the entry for Monday, 5th May – see page 4 of this thread here
I have still not found much by way of searching the web for "General Trepoff" - I was about to sign up on what looked like a Russian history forum tonight until a second browser window popped up offering all sorts of stuff for sale ... very cheaply. I'll dig out my old set of Encyclopaedia Britannica tomorrow night and see if I can find out anymore without having to take a second wife
Regards,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:56 pm
Pat - Yes, the latest illustrations are indeed taken from 'The Paravane Adventure'. Good luck with your other research regarding the Russian emigrés. I reckon there's a good biography to be written about Denn. He certainly lived in interesting times, witnessed (and took part in) remarkable events and met some extraordinary people.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.

Naval_Gazer
- Posts: 1927
- Joined: Jan 19, 2007
- Location: Vernon in spirit
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:56 pm
Naval_Gazer & List,
I suspect this Russian history forum site is genuine - certainly it has the look and feel of being such. I have just applied to join and am awaiting vetting by the administrator. Once in, I am pretty sure I'll get some good intel on General Trepoff and other Russians listed in the Diary.
Spotted two more ships in the entry for Friday, 11th April 1919:
...Talbot and Odin arrived homeward bound.
I found this on HMS Talbot on Wikipedia - seems she played a major part in the Gallipoli Campaign. HMS Oden has no entry apart from the fact she was a sloop launched in 1901 and sold in 1920. Anyone know of this ship?
Another ship, HMS Partridge II, as referenced in the entry for Saturday, 3rd May 1919 has me puzzled:
The Wikipedia page for all the ships named HMS Partridge is here - the ship Denn is referring to seems to be omitted from the list. By my estimate, she should be in between the sixth and seventh HMS Partridge. It's interesting that the seventh HMS Partridge was lost in the Mediterranean during WWII - see her story here.
Can anyone put light on Denn's Partridge II?
Another puzzling thing is that there is no Rev. Halliday listed on the Malta Family History site page here - he may have been a civilian chaplain of course - does anyone know what the initials M.A.S.C.F. mean?
I did find a possible candidate on this Scottish Genealogy forum. The last post at the bottom of the page is interesting - looks like I need to join this one too!
Regards,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie
I suspect this Russian history forum site is genuine - certainly it has the look and feel of being such. I have just applied to join and am awaiting vetting by the administrator. Once in, I am pretty sure I'll get some good intel on General Trepoff and other Russians listed in the Diary.
Spotted two more ships in the entry for Friday, 11th April 1919:
Quote:
...Talbot and Odin arrived homeward bound.
I found this on HMS Talbot on Wikipedia - seems she played a major part in the Gallipoli Campaign. HMS Oden has no entry apart from the fact she was a sloop launched in 1901 and sold in 1920. Anyone know of this ship?
Another ship, HMS Partridge II, as referenced in the entry for Saturday, 3rd May 1919 has me puzzled:
Quote:
...Partridge II arrived from Constantinople bringing the "Padre" back, i.e. Rev. Halliday, M.A.S.C.F...
The Wikipedia page for all the ships named HMS Partridge is here - the ship Denn is referring to seems to be omitted from the list. By my estimate, she should be in between the sixth and seventh HMS Partridge. It's interesting that the seventh HMS Partridge was lost in the Mediterranean during WWII - see her story here.
Can anyone put light on Denn's Partridge II?
Another puzzling thing is that there is no Rev. Halliday listed on the Malta Family History site page here - he may have been a civilian chaplain of course - does anyone know what the initials M.A.S.C.F. mean?
I did find a possible candidate on this Scottish Genealogy forum. The last post at the bottom of the page is interesting - looks like I need to join this one too!
Regards,
Pat
_________________
Web: whitebeamimages.ie
Email: pat @ whitebeamimages.ie

sea_mine
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sep 03, 2009
- Location: Co. Kilkenny, IRELAND
Re: 1919 Diary ID
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:16 pm
Pat - Information about the Cadmus Class sloop HMS Odin is available on Wikipedia here. I have also gleaned this information from various posts on the Great War Forum so I can't vouch for its authenticity:
In Aug 1914, HMS Odin and HMS Lawrence were the only RN vessels in the Persian Gulf. HMS Lawrence was a wooden paddle vessel with only a few small guns but HMS Odin was armed with 6 x 4" breech loaders, 4 x 3 pdr quick firing guns and 2 x Maxim machine guns. The opposition comprised a Turkish gunboat called Marmariss. On 10 Sep 1914, Odin was ordered to patrol the Shatt-al-Arab (arriving 16 Sep) with orders to stop the Turks attacking the British oil refinery at Abadan. She was joined there by sister ship HMS Espiegle amid rumours that the German cruiser Emden was en route.

HMS Odin's sister ship HMS Espiegle
Odin was still in the region when Indian Expeditionary Force D arrived in Nov 1914 and she provided naval cover to the landings and early operations in the Basra / Abadan area, including the action at Saihan on 17 Nov 1914. She damaged her rudder on 25 Nov in shallow water at Qurna. In March 1915, HMS Odin was again in action near Qurna. According to 'The A.I.F. in Sinai and Palestine' (Syd, 1923) by G. McMunn and Cyril Falls:
A month later the ship was in action near the same point, again acting in company with sister ship Espiegle and other vessels forming the “Euphrates Blockade Flotilla”. On 14 Apr 1915, they pursued escaping Turkish boats, destroying eight and capturing four vessels the official history calls “mahailas”. The main danger facing the vessel seems to have been floating mines which the Turks sent down river. After this, she provided support to Townsend’s soldiers at the second action of Qurna on 31st May, shelling Turkish positions and then …
On 1 Jun 1915, Odin along with other vessels of the Flotilla engaged Turkish gunboats, firing on the Mosul and the Marmariss. The Turkish vessels cast off some smaller vessels that were being towed and these were picked up by Odin. The Marmariss was captured (or sunk) the next day by other vessels of the Flotilla, including the Espiegle which, being the flagship of the flotilla, seems to have always got the plum jobs whilst the Odin got the less glamourous ones! The Official History then reads: “General Nixon pointed out…that he could not speak too highly of the part played by the officers and men of the royal navy under the command of captain Nunn” After accompanying the troops to Amara the flotilla withdrew downstream and there is no further mention of the Odin.
On 5 Mar 1917, HMS Odin challenged the German auxiliary raider Iltis in the course of laying mines off Aden and Iltis proceeded to scuttle herself. Iltis was the ex-British steamer Turritella which had been captured by SMS Wolf on 27 Feb 1917. She had been modestly armed and loaded with 25 mines, some of which she succeeded in laying because two ships were later damaged by them.
With regard to Partridge II, I found this reference on the National Archives website concerning S.S. (not HMS) Partridge II among "a series of files (the majority dating from 1866) of the Transport Department of the Admiralty, dealing with the transport by sea of all military forces and their supplies, and the organization of the transport service. The series includes a few files of the Ministry of Shipping."
The naval-history.net website also lists this casualty with corresponding Commonwealth War Graves Commission entry here:
...and this casualty with corresponding Commonwealth War Graves Commission entry here:
Whatever the illness was, it must have been pretty nasty. Note that 'MMR' = Mercantile Marine Reserve. This revealing exchange was published in Hansard in Apr 1919:
MASCF = Something to do with Minister of the Church of Scotland and Free Churches perhaps? I'm not that well up on ecumenical history.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.
In Aug 1914, HMS Odin and HMS Lawrence were the only RN vessels in the Persian Gulf. HMS Lawrence was a wooden paddle vessel with only a few small guns but HMS Odin was armed with 6 x 4" breech loaders, 4 x 3 pdr quick firing guns and 2 x Maxim machine guns. The opposition comprised a Turkish gunboat called Marmariss. On 10 Sep 1914, Odin was ordered to patrol the Shatt-al-Arab (arriving 16 Sep) with orders to stop the Turks attacking the British oil refinery at Abadan. She was joined there by sister ship HMS Espiegle amid rumours that the German cruiser Emden was en route.

HMS Odin's sister ship HMS Espiegle
Odin was still in the region when Indian Expeditionary Force D arrived in Nov 1914 and she provided naval cover to the landings and early operations in the Basra / Abadan area, including the action at Saihan on 17 Nov 1914. She damaged her rudder on 25 Nov in shallow water at Qurna. In March 1915, HMS Odin was again in action near Qurna. According to 'The A.I.F. in Sinai and Palestine' (Syd, 1923) by G. McMunn and Cyril Falls:
MacMunn and Falls:
...The Turks were holding most or all of the sandhill islands to the north [of Qurna] and on some of them were mounting guns. On the 19th March their artillery opened fire from Gun Hill, and the gunboat Marmariss was seen to be underway near Peardrop Bend. HMS Odin at once moved up the river to engage her, but the Marmariss did not come down below the Ruta obstruction. The Turkish action was so suspicious that the Odin advanced with caution, until a large observation mine exploding just ahead of her showed clearly that the Marmariss was only trying to draw the Odin over a minefield...
A month later the ship was in action near the same point, again acting in company with sister ship Espiegle and other vessels forming the “Euphrates Blockade Flotilla”. On 14 Apr 1915, they pursued escaping Turkish boats, destroying eight and capturing four vessels the official history calls “mahailas”. The main danger facing the vessel seems to have been floating mines which the Turks sent down river. After this, she provided support to Townsend’s soldiers at the second action of Qurna on 31st May, shelling Turkish positions and then …
MacMunn and Falls:
...preceded by the mine-sweeping armed launches Shaitan and Sumana, the Espiegle and Clio now moved up and anchored off Norfolk Hill to join in the bombardment of One Tower hill, and the Odin, Lawrence and Miner also moved up in support. These warships continued to be the main target for the Turkish guns and both the Espiegle and Odin were hit by shells, without, however, sustaining much damage or loss...
On 1 Jun 1915, Odin along with other vessels of the Flotilla engaged Turkish gunboats, firing on the Mosul and the Marmariss. The Turkish vessels cast off some smaller vessels that were being towed and these were picked up by Odin. The Marmariss was captured (or sunk) the next day by other vessels of the Flotilla, including the Espiegle which, being the flagship of the flotilla, seems to have always got the plum jobs whilst the Odin got the less glamourous ones! The Official History then reads: “General Nixon pointed out…that he could not speak too highly of the part played by the officers and men of the royal navy under the command of captain Nunn” After accompanying the troops to Amara the flotilla withdrew downstream and there is no further mention of the Odin.
On 5 Mar 1917, HMS Odin challenged the German auxiliary raider Iltis in the course of laying mines off Aden and Iltis proceeded to scuttle herself. Iltis was the ex-British steamer Turritella which had been captured by SMS Wolf on 27 Feb 1917. She had been modestly armed and loaded with 25 mines, some of which she succeeded in laying because two ships were later damaged by them.
With regard to Partridge II, I found this reference on the National Archives website concerning S.S. (not HMS) Partridge II among "a series of files (the majority dating from 1866) of the Transport Department of the Admiralty, dealing with the transport by sea of all military forces and their supplies, and the organization of the transport service. The series includes a few files of the Ministry of Shipping."
The naval-history.net website also lists this casualty with corresponding Commonwealth War Graves Commission entry here:
naval-history.net:
HAMLIN, Thomas, Assistant Steward, MMR, 940981, Partridge II, 26 October 1918, illness
...and this casualty with corresponding Commonwealth War Graves Commission entry here:
naval-history.net:
PHILLIPS, William, Carpenter, MMR, 921982, Partridge II, 28 October 1918, illness
Whatever the illness was, it must have been pretty nasty. Note that 'MMR' = Mercantile Marine Reserve. This revealing exchange was published in Hansard in Apr 1919:
Hansard: HC Deb 02 April 1919 vol 114 cc1169-70:
MERCANTILE MARINE RESERVE.
Mr. CROOKS: asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that men who volunteered for the Mercantile Marine Reserve worked under naval discipline and were engaged in such work as mine-laying, he will consider the possibility of these men being awarded the gratuity as in the case of Service men?
Dr. MACNAMARMA: In view of the special nature of their emoluments, it is not proposed to issue to men of the Mercantile Marine Reserve the naval war gratuity awarded to men who received naval rates of pay.
Mr. J. JONES: Is he aware that numbers of these men have been torpedoed four and five times, and have made as much sacrifice as any other section of the community?
Dr. MACNAMARA: We are all very grateful to them, and fully aware of the sacrifices made by these men, but I would like to send my Hon. Friend a reasoned statement of the decision which I have announced.
Mr. J. JONES: They were under naval discipline.
Mr. CROOKS: asked the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that men who volunteered for the Mercantile Marine Reserve worked under naval discipline and were engaged in such work as mine-laying, he will consider the possibility of these men being awarded the gratuity as in the case of Service men?
Dr. MACNAMARMA: In view of the special nature of their emoluments, it is not proposed to issue to men of the Mercantile Marine Reserve the naval war gratuity awarded to men who received naval rates of pay.
Mr. J. JONES: Is he aware that numbers of these men have been torpedoed four and five times, and have made as much sacrifice as any other section of the community?
Dr. MACNAMARA: We are all very grateful to them, and fully aware of the sacrifices made by these men, but I would like to send my Hon. Friend a reasoned statement of the decision which I have announced.
Mr. J. JONES: They were under naval discipline.
MASCF = Something to do with Minister of the Church of Scotland and Free Churches perhaps? I'm not that well up on ecumenical history.
_________________
"The British Army should be a projectile to be fired by the Navy." Sir Edward Grey, British Foreign Secretary 1905-1916.

Naval_Gazer
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